Unless you are part of the Primal/Paleo movement I suspect you’re about to have your belief system seriously challenged, maybe even shattered for good.
So if you aren’t genuinely open-minded to the thought that everything you know about nutrition could be wrong, you may want to avoid reading all together.
In fact you may want to consider hiring a Life Coach!
After kicking off my Paleo Experiment that has morphed into a Primal Experiment I thought it would be cool to pick the brains of the man that is in the vanguard of the movement, Mark Sisson who runs the popular and highly informative Marks Daily Apple website.
It’s a longish post and I hope you’ll find it fascinating. You may agree with Mark, or you may disagree, but it will certainly get you thinking and I’d value your feedback.
The Primal Blueprint – An Interview With Mark Sisson
In a paragraph or two, what is the Primal Blueprint?
Two million years of evolution has led us to where we now each possess the DNA recipe (genes) to build a perfect, healthy, happy human form.
Unfortunately, many of us have, over the years, mismanaged those genes, turning the wrong gene “switches” on or off based on poor diet, exercise or other behaviors we have chosen.
The Primal Blueprint is a lifestyle “roadmap” intended to get you back on the track to rebuild that lean, fit, strong, healthy, productive, loving person that you know lurks inside you by optimizing gene expression.
It combines clues from evolutionary biology and research from modern genetic science to identify those very real signals we can send our genes (through what we eat, how we exercise, how much sun or sleep we get, etc) to direct expression towards boosting immune function, burning more body fat and building more muscle, while decreasing inflammation and lowering risk for disease.
It’s the easiest way to optimize body composition, energy, libido, and productivity.
What got you into it?
I was tired and frustrated from trying to do everything right according to the Conventional Wisdom, but getting mediocre results. I was an elite marathoner (2:18) and triathlete (4th at Hawaii Ironman), so I could race fast, but I was constantly sick or injured, had osteoarthritis in my feet, tendonitis in my hips, Irritable Bowel Syndrome and seasonal allergies.
I was a wreck from trying to be healthy and fit! When I retired from competition 20 years ago, I vowed to find all the ways I could become lean, strong, fit, fast AND healthy with the least amount of pain, suffering, sacrifice, calorie-counting and all those other negative words we associate with being fit and healthy.
I’ve spent the last decade showing people how easy it can be to achieve those health and fitness goals while totally enjoying what you eat, how you exercise and how you live the rest of your life. That’s what the Primal Blueprint is all about.
There seems to be a lot of confusion between Paleo and Primal, what are the main differences?
The biggest difference is that Paleo is historically “only” a diet, while Primal encompasses all aspects of how we live in accordance with our hunter-gatherer genes.
Primal certainly focuses on the eating strategy as well (I call it a kinder, gentler Paleo), but also looks at exercise protocols from the perspective of optimizing gene expression with specific movements like sprinting and doing full-range-of-motion and bodyweight exercises, while eschewing the whole “chronic cardio” movement as not only a waste of time, but likely harmful to your health in the long run.
Primal also encompasses other lifestyle factors like sleep patterns, play and sun exposure as essential to maximizing health and fitness.
Primal ‘allows’ the use of certain dairy products, but surely Grok wouldn’t have had access to these, would he?
Tims Note: Grok is the name given to the character on the right that epitomizes the primal lifestyle. You can read more here.
No he wouldn’t, and that’s where the “kinder, gentler Paleo” moniker comes in. I tried to make Primal accessible to the largest number of people possible. If you really want to go “full Primal” you stay away from dairy, but not everyone has that kind of resolve.
Moreover, the evidence against dairy for some people isn’t as overwhelmingly damning as it is for grains. For starters, everyone is born with the ability to digest lactose, otherwise we couldn’t live on breast milk.
The fact that some of us lose that enzyme later in life and become lactose intolerant does predispose some people to problems with dairy, and I recommend that those folks not mess with that fact.
But many others might find that a little raw dairy now and then (not that pasteurized, homogenized crap) poses no problem. Of course, it’s up to each individual to experiment.
There are some foods Grok might not have encountered that might still add value or pleasure to a modern diet. I’m not a fan of milk at all, but I love heavy whipping cream and butter, and there seems to be little evidence that those forms of fat-rich foods have a negative impact on most people.
I like a little cheese once in a while, or some chocolate or a glass of wine, none of which were available to Grok on a regular basis. That doesn’t mean those choices are going to cause any damage to my health if consumed within reason.
You say in the book that there’s no need to drink excessive water as we have an inbuilt mechanism that tells us to drink when necessary, ie we get thirsty, but I thought being thirsty meant we were already dehydrated and should have drunk earlier, is that wrong?
Wrong again. That’s another myth. Being thirsty means we should drink a bit of water (or equivalent) if some is handy, but it certainly doesn’t mean we are already dehydrated.
I think we tend to over hydrate because we have been led to believe it’s healthy. It may not be. For two million plus years of evolution, our ancestors went without a tap or a bottle of Evian hanging at their side all the time. They weren’t near a river or lake all the time. They didn’t even have a cup to hold water if they found some.
Our hydration regulation mechanism (primarily via the kidneys) works very well to keep us adequately hydrated most of the time. Ironically, it’s grain-based diets that increase the need for hydration a bit. Still, most people get all the water they need from veggies and fruits and a glass or two of water during the day.
How do you suggest using the plan if someone’s priority is just to lose weight? And as a follow up to that, is it advisable for somebody that may be 150 or more pounds over weight just to dive in?
We have had thousands of people just dive in and get fantastic results. Most of them start with a desire to lose weight, but soon find that, in addition to losing weight effortlessly, their skin clears up, they have more energy, they sleep better and just regain a zest for life.
Some of the best results seem to come from the people with the most weight to lose. Even if you don’t exercise that much, you’ll get great results. Remember that 80% of your body composition results from how you eat.
Is the exercise regime you suggest a minimum, a maximum or just an ideal?
I think it’s an ideal. One sprint workout a week, two bodyweight routines a week and you fill the rest of your active time with play, rest or what we call “moving around at a low level of aerobic activity” (walking, hiking, puttering in the garden, playing with your kids, or even an occasional 5k race, etc).
That’s the “prescription” although we talk about the random or fractal nature of exercise and how you can benefit from an unstructured program as long as you get intuitively when it’s time to rest.
Sure, you can do more if you want, but realize that there may be diminishing returns or even consequences from doing too much. I’m all about efficiency: how can I get the most benefit for the least pain, suffering and sacrifice?
I have been amazed by the amount of scientific research you point to in the book that supports the Primal Blueprint. Do you get frustrated that more people aren’t aware of this?
It’s probably my biggest frustration. This evidence has been accumulating for decades now, yet very little of it makes it into the mainstream media. Public health policy still favors the lipid hypothesis, the fear of fat and cholesterol and the use of drugs over simple lifestyle changes.
I think the notion that we should all eat 6-11 servings of grains a day is bordering on criminal in the face of all the evidence that suggests we would be far better off eating zero grains and MORE meat, fish fowl, eggs, nuts and seeds.
The fear of saturated fat keeps us from enjoying some of nature’s best foods and one of our most important nutrients.
One of the common themes among people I talk to that have spent any length of time on the PB is massive energy gains. Do you think this is because people were really energy deprived previously and this takes them to ‘normal’ levels, or that they were normal and the PB actually elevates that to a higher level?
They were deprived and now are normal. Humans were designed to derive most of our energy from stored body fat. That’s the reason we have that capability in the first place.
Grok was lucky to get 80 grams of carbs a day locked in a tough, fibrous matrix. Fat and protein ruled the day then.
Unfortunately, with agriculture’s introduction 10,000 years ago came an unlimited supply of cheap carbohydrate calories. The reliance on a regular refeeding of carbs literally programs one’s genes to upregulate sugar-burning and down-regulate fat burning.
That’s why so many people feel they have to eat a meal every three hours; blood glucose drops after a carb-heavy meal (as insulin drives it into fat and muscle cells) and hunger for more sets in. Insulin resistance keeps fat locked in fat cells and prevents more glucose from getting into muscle cells, so many people frequently feel hungry all the time AND lethargic all the time.
Conversely, when one programs one’s genes to selectively burn mostly stored body fat (by eating a high-fat diet and exercising appropriately), a few things happen.
You never – or rarely – get low blood sugar, even if you skip one or more meals. The steady-state energy from burning fats is a much more reliable and continuous source.
You don’t get as ravenously hungry as before, so it takes less food to satisfy you.
You don’t have to exercise nearly as much to maintain low body fat and lean muscle. Ultimately, people experience a new sense of energy they never had before.
My old trainer back in the UK says it’s more or less impossible to do triathlons without carb loading, do you agree?
I used to think so, too. Now I can point to lots of triathletes who have trained to more efficiently burn body fat on a lower carb training regimen and intuitively know where the redline is. They race as well or better now than they did when they carbo-loaded all the time, especially since they have dropped a few pounds of body fat, but kept the muscle.
They do use carb gels during the actual events, but keep the carbs low during training. You’re going to see more and more endurance athletes using Primal training in the future. Why spend $8,000 to take 3 pounds off your bike when you can take 6 off your body and race faster for free?
I’m not sure if you saw Jamie Olivers Food Revolution, but if you did, do you see that as a valuable stepping stone away from high processed junk food, or just the embedding of conventional wisdom?
A little of both. Clearly, we have a long way to go in teaching kids and their parents how to eat, but I’m not convinced Jaime is on the right track. Eliminating junk food, but still sticking with grains, for instance, isn’t my idea of optimal health. He’s certainly a great communicator, though.
You talk about intermittent fasting how does that help and what length of time do you see as the ideal?
I think IF (intermittent fasting) is a great tool for weight loss once you have adapted to the Primal eating style, say three weeks into it. When you can skip a meal with zero effect on mood, blood sugar or energy and burn off a few hundred extra calories, why not take advantage?
There’s great research that IF can speed up repair of damaged cells, too. I use IF all the time when I’m traveling and find myself skipping a meal as a result of a wacky schedule.
I don’t go more than two skipped meals, mostly because I like to eat and I don’t need to lose body fat (I stay at 8%). I wouldn’t go days without eating as some fasting programs do. A skipped meal or two once or twice a week is fine for most people.
You mention in the book that people will see a difference in days rather than weeks or months, yet I must confess I felt worse to begin with and it’s only as I come toward the end of the second week that I am returning to normal. Isn’t this going to vary from person to person?
Sure. Most people do notice an effect soon. Usually it’s a belt notch or two. Remember, when you spend your life depending on a fresh supply of carbs every three hours and you convert to fat-burning, you go through a transition.
Your brain still expects sugar every few hours, but it takes three weeks for the gene “reprogramming” to fully kick in. You hadn’t yet as of the second week. I guarantee that everyone who does this right will come out of the third week feeling fantastic and ready to change for good. We see increased energy and consistent weight loss of a few pounds a week indefinitely in most people until they hit their optimum body composition.
I know you’re not big on goals, preferring to have fun and incidentally I love your take on that, but do you have any goals or if you prefer, dreams, of where you’d like to see the whole Primal movement go?
My mission is to help 10,000,000 people see how they can regain total control of their health and fitness by fully understanding how their body was designed to work – and then let them make that choice (or not) from a place of knowing the pros and cons of each decision.
Note: If you like Marks take or are just intrigued by such radical thinking, you’ll love the book The Primal Blueprint. (al)
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Oh yeah, we absolutely have gotten it wrong for so long. Look at the skyrocketing rates of diabetes and obesity.
Obviously, something’s not right somewhere, me thinks.
Loved the interview. Mark is awesome.
And that’s the point. People say this can’t be right, but neither can an educated country having obesity rates of over 30%
This is one heck of a coincidence! I was on Mark’s blog 10 minutes before visiting yours Tim. I recently started eating a loosely primal diet, and my goal is to reach a fully primal diet in a month. Great to read all the insights Marc has to offer.
I think if I did this again and wasn’t blogging about it I would transition more slowly. The crash or carb flu as they call it on Mark site has been tough to deal with.
Fantastic post, Tim. I’m 100% behind it all. Evolutionary biology and psychology, genetics – I’m on it. Sometimes it’s hard to live (and bring your children up) in a world that simply isn’t ready for it. I look forward to the day when what I believe and do isn’t considered crazy and dangerous!
Yeh cuz it sure aint crazy serving your kids pizza and fries for breakfast, and reconstituted deep fried chicken for dinner day in, day out ;-)
What I know about Nutrition is quite simple. You’ve to get back to the basics. Decrease meat in your dies and increase fresh vegetables. Not can packed, but totally fresh. Salads and more. A lot of fruits.
If you want a healthy fresh body, give your body healthy fresh things to digest. That’s it.
So you ‘know’ that do you Jaky, or do you mean you believe it?
Great interview Tim and it’s very insightful information. It totally coincides with what I’ve been saying recently. Just because a few high profile people go vegan, everyone assumes you must be a vegan and it’s the healthiest way to live…nuh uh.
That and get up at 5.00am and be a minimalist and eat raw food. Don’t forget those ;-)
I don’t disagree, per se, with this approach. I just believe when we treat the word “diet” as a noun and not a verb, then we will find better long-term success. In other words, we need to mindful of the range of foods we are eating. Carbs can be useful; so can fat. It’s when we start to refrain from any certain food is when we crave it the most.
Balance is the key.
Alex
The Primal Blueprint isn’t really a diet Alex. I was highly skeptical until I read the book, but now I’m tending to see overwhelming contrary evidence to the conventional wisdom.
I’ve been eating this way for a little over a month and find it quite easy to maintain. I didn’t have Tim’s carb flu other than one afternoon that I felt exhausted. Maybe I was just exhausted. The benefits have been multi-fold including the weight loss which I want. I’m looking forward to my next lipid profile. Two years ago I went vegetarian for six-months and my cholesterol got worse and I sure didn’t feel any better. This is working for me and my wife.
Thanks, Tim, for soliciting the questions and the great interview. He’s seems very genuine and certainly committed to helping others.
Wow – I can’t imagine you being a veggie Bob. Shit that would be like me not having an opinion on something!
Great, two of my favorite bloggers unite!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vY-4zWKsJM
That did make my laugh!
Couple of things. I disagree with missing meals. This promotes a catabolic state in the body. For some people this is fine, but I still don’t suggest it.
Second, while Grok is used as a model for this idea, one thing to understand is primal man ate more than meat. He at some of the organs, and even the bone marrow, of his kills. Therefore, he got an amazing amount of nutrients not available to us today. Therefore, any diet, not just this one, needs a strong supplementation support to get your BCAA, Omega-3′s, etc.
Personally, I eat very much like this, save for my nutrient timing around workouts where I do load carbohydrate (I am currently in a bulking cycle) mainly through waxy maize.
As far as the workout ideas, my size and strength level would decline dramatically if I were to adopt his ideas. So your individual goals in that respect will rule whether or not it is effective.
Cool interview Tim, and this may be the longest comment I’ve ever left.
Good points mate and Mark actually addresses those in the book including the bone marrow and Omega 3 thing.
Long comments welcome ;-)
Dear Tim.
Glad to hear you are embracing primal/paleo and giving it some additional coverage. I am feeling ever so let by your lack of references within your posts to my groundbreaking guest post. At the time I was disparaged and ridiculed by your readers and feel I am due some bigging up. Perhaps your next post could something along the lines of “He told me so” and “That Guy was ahead of his time”! Next thing you know, you’ll be walking around barefoot…
(Aside: I have been experimenting with walking round town barefoot over the summer, and yesterday my lovely wife went home early from a picnic with my shoes and left me to go to the pub to watch the football barefoot. Many people were enquiring about this phenomena, and one friend in particular said don’t you step on glass and/or dogshit? and I politely explained that one generally looks where one is stepping when one is barefoot, and anyway it’s much easier to clean shit off your barefeet than your shoes(allegedly as i have yet to try it). Anyway to cut along story short, had a text from another friend this morning saying that Jill had managed to tread in dogshit on the way home! P****ed myself? you bet!)
Your talk with Mark about endurance sports made me think of this series of blog posts
http://naturalmessiah.blogspot.com/2010/06/welsh-143ks-history-detail.html
who took part in a 24 hour hill race over 15 3000ft peaks in Wales, whilst following strict paleo diet and wearing vibram 5 fingers. Also check out Methuselah at http://paynowlivelater.blogspot.com/ who regularly takes part in fell races whilst fasted and on a strict paleo diet. Both these are great primal bloggers and well worth your readers checking out.
@joshua please check out Keith Norris at http://theorytopractice.wordpress.com/ just to see what musculature you can achieve via strictt paleo and short intense workouts. Another fantastic blogger with a amazing body for his age.
All 3 of the above bloggers are well worth following and engaging with. These guys are living proof of n=1 experiment ion and are prepared to put their bodies on test and share their experiences.
//guy
ps make sure you eat fat. think dripping (I now render my own in bulk with suet bought form the butcher). you get that on your side of the pennines too I believe.
Guy told me so!
You make a valid point mate, you lead and we followed. All thought leaders get ridiculed to begin with, but the knowledge that you’ll probably be canonized should be enough.
That is an hilarious story and don’t worry you can say ‘pissed yourself’ on here *’s not needed!
I never wear shoes in the house and that’s where I am 85% of the day. I don’t think I’ll walk barefoot with the dogs though as I’m not sure Black Widows and snakes know the correct etiquette.
just noticed the comment about long comments welcome…good job really :-)
Great interview Tim. I love Mark’s philosophy.
Something you said in passing in a comment above is, in my belief, a very key point. This isn’t about a diet (since most people consider diets temporary). This is a lifestyle and needs to be treated as such. People shouldn’t expect to treat this as a temporary switch to their routine because that will only lead to temporary changes.
If everyone stopped dieting and started pursuing healthier lifestyles, we’d all be better off.
~Dave
Agreed. I have had a tendency to use the D word myself, but I find it hard to believe I’m on a diet when I’m devouring some of the food I have been.
I heartily agree with you Dave. I shied away from the word ‘diet’ when I started this. Tim and I discussed it as he was using the ‘D’ word a lot then. But, Helen, kept saying it was a way of life and I think he’s got it now. In fact, he’ll probably take credit for it now. (It was really Helen though!)
Helen’s pet!
This is very interesting, and in principle I like it. I want to pick a particular idea (hydration) to illustrate my questions about the general principles here…
I’ve often wondered if everything we’re peddled now about drinking water is true – and the reason I’ve wondered this is for the same reasons Mark states, that in the past we didn’t always have access to water, so the body was well equipped to survive on ad-hoc hydration (at least for a short time).
So it does make sense that thirst is our indicator that we need water (and we’re not already dehydrated before we reach that point). As always, listening to what your body tells you is best. However, here are the questions:
1. What if you’re not particularly tuned in to hearing what your body is telling you? Perhaps we’ve become adept at ignoring or missing those signals – or perhaps other factors are scrambling the signals (e.g. stress or other dietary influences).
2. What if ‘yes’ the body is designed to function perfectly well so long as we rehydrate soon after registering thirst, BUT it actually functions better is we hydrate it before reaching that point?
I believe the human body is an amazing thing and I love it when all the media detox crap is debunked at new year by doctors who remind us that good nutrition and plenty of water (together with rest and physical activity) is all we need to allow our liver to do a very good detox all on its own. Given that we can survive on all sorts of rubbish and nutritional deficiency, surely our bodies can cope with grains (at least in moderation)?
So, I do like the ideas presented here, but are they *really* facts, and do they serve us well in this day and age? So far, it is still too anecdotal for me.
Signed by someone who is, ironically, drastically reducing carb intake!!! :)
I think we’ll look back in 100 years time and laugh our asses off at some of the stuff we do now. At least I hope so!
I think the scientific community sometimes fail to acknowledge anecdotal data. Data can NEVER be disputed, it is what it is. How we interpret it and whether we are seeing causes where there are mere correlation is another matter though.
I went on another board and asked for ANYBODY that had gone Primal and had suffered. With over 100 views and a handful of replies on a very ‘raw diet’ leaning board, not one negative reply.
I keep hearing it again and again and it’s usually the people that haven’t done it that knock it. In fact in my limited experience it’s ONLY the people that haven’t done it.
That’s not proof of course, but it makes you think for sure.
Hi Tim,
I’ve been doing the low-carb / paleo approach for more than 18 months now. I am 183cm tall and weighted 86kg when I began. Within a week from starting my energy levels skyrocketed. Within 2 months I had lost 5kg. Within 6 months I had lost another five.
Now I’m somewhere around 74kg, but since the beginning of this year I’ve been gaining quite a bit of muscle as well while losing body fat – all the while eating as much as I want, but sticking to the low-carbohydrate foods except for one day a week when I purposefully increase the carb-intake and enjoy the otherwise forbidden things such as ice cream, chocolate, pizza etc.
I don’t avoid fat either. In fact, I realized few months ago that most packed meats in the store are only lean cuts, and if I don’t do something to compensate I am not getting enough fat (In paleo most of the total calories should come from fat, after all). Therefore I started adding all kinds of things like creme fraiche and cheese to increase the fat intake – and the taste of the foods I cook!
I’d really recommend checking this Gary Taubes lecture if you want to know more about the science behind all this: http://www.dhslides.org/mgr/mgr060509f/f.htm
I also have quite a few posts on my own website explaining this approach to diet and nutrition, and why it works.
Good luck with your way into paleo/primal lifestyle, Tim!
//sami
Thanks Sami, it’s encouraging to hear what you say. I’m kinda glad I didn’t research too heavily because if I’d known about the carb flu stage I may never have done it!
Thanks for the links I’ll check them out!
When I get through the first month I’ll start to introduce some butter and aged cheeses back in I think to help get the fat content up, although I’ll not go back to drinking milk or using any lactose heavy dairy products.
I first learned of the Paleo lifestyle from the CrossFit junkies I am hanging around with. I started paleo with Tim’s blog post a few weeks ago, and I am seeing outstanding results.
Not so much in weight loss, but with my performance in the gym. I also see it in the mirror in the morning. I do admit that the hangover days in the beginning were pretty challenging, but the payoff is worth it.
Great post, and thanks for all the info!
I’ve dropped back a bit this week and been feeling a bit crap again Mike, although Helen seems to have broken through. I’m really going to go balls out this week to get through the carb flu stage because it’s not fun.
I’m committed to the end of the month and then I’ll reassess depending on how I feel.
P.S.
What’s the verdict on Quinoa? I know its a grain, but it is seemingly more protein, no fat, no sugar. Diet killer, or acceptable for pasta substitute?
Mike,
You might want to check this article on Quinoa at Mark’s Daily Apple. It should explain everything :) http://www.marksdailyapple.com/alternatives-to-grains-quinoa/
I used to include quinoa in all my post-workout meals when I was going to gym once or twice a week, but dropped it recently as I started doing more strength training and experimenting with the carb-cycling approach to diet.
//sami
Thanks Sami, I found that very helpful. I am liking it for just a break from the same old- same old of meat and veggies. I like the pasta they make from Quinoa, and can easily add shrimp or turkey/chicken to it to make a great protein rich, low fat dish.
I have tried the intermittent fasting in the past. I found something wonderful. My fast lasted from my last evening meal to breakfast on day 2 or about 1 1/3 days.
There was this incredible mental clarity of thought, awareness, and sense of being in control. The only way to describe it was like a runners high.
Of course, I was running and in much better shape then. It was wonderful.