Recently I was talking to somebody about the Universe and we were wondering how big it is.
We both agreed it’s very big, but that’s about as far as we got. My friend said it was infinite and that just blows my mind.
What does that even mean? I don’t mean in the literal sense, but try and imagine something that goes on and on forever and never stops.
Think of Paula Abdul critiquing an American Idol contestant and you’re almost there, but not quite. See what I mean about mind-blowing?
I suggested that the Universe may not be infinite and that at some point if you travel far enough you may come to a brick wall with a sign saying ‘End of Known and Unknown Universe – Keep Out’.
It may not be an actual brick wall per se; it could more of a picket fence type of arrangement with shrubs and pretty perennial plants placed in between. Or it may even be space is curved and you eventually end up back where you started.
How frustrating would that be if you’d just spent an infinite amount of money and an infinite amount of time and you end up back in Cleveland?
What Is Outside The Universe?
Whatever the answer is it still begs the question, what’s just outside of that? I don’t know about you but I struggle with nothingness.
I have no point of reference in my mind and if I ponder it for too long I start drooling and slowly rocking backwards and forwards in a fetal position whilst sucking my thumb.
The problem to my mind is, and I paraphrase Einstein; I’m using the same thinking to solve the problem that allowed it inside my head in the first place.
I have to either forget about it and accept I don’t know, or step so far outside of my box that I’m in a world where boxes don’t even exist. Or if they do, they live in multiple dimensions and cost a lot more to produce.
If you’d asked me 10 years ago if I believed in God, I’d have smirked like somebody that’s in on an in-joke and replied that I didn’t.
However, over the last few years as I’ve read more on spirituality my views have shifted radically. Now I’m firmly in the camp of ‘believer’. I’m not at all sure what it is I believe in other than a higher power. A much, much higher power, but I’m working on it.
When I take on a new client I send them an intake form. It asks the person to grade where they see themselves in 16 separate areas of their life. One of the areas is spirituality.
At that stage I don’t delineate between spirituality and religion because I want to understand what the client’s opinion of spirituality/religion is, not try and foist mine upon them.
Moving from the UK to the US was a bigger culture shock than I expected. After having spent so much time here prior to emigrating I thought I knew what I needed to know. I didn’t, in fact I wasn’t even close.
The UK is to all intents and purposes a secular country. I read recently that less than 2% of people regularly go to Church. And by regularly, I don’t think it included those festive souls that decide it’s a great idea to go to the pub on Christmas Eve, get loaded, and then head to Christmas Eve Mass after closing to see if there’s any free wine going.
The easiest way to explain the difference between the two cultures would be this. I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t significantly (if at all) harm a UK politician running to become Prime Minister if he or she admitted to being an atheist. Whereas in the US such a confession would make the person effectively unelectable.
Is It Necessary To Force Our Beliefs On Others?
I love Kurt Warner he’s one of my heroes. For those of you that don’t follow (American) football, Kurt was the Rams QB when we were the team nicknamed the Greatest Show on Turf in football between 1999 and 2002.
Not only that, but Kurt is known to be an all round great guy. He does a lot of charity work, is always kind and considerate and you never ever hear him trash talk the opposition.
I was delighted to see him take the Cardinals to this years Superbowl, but slightly dismayed to hear what he said after the Championship win over the Eagles.
Kurt thanked Jesus on live TV for the win.
Does God Take Side in Sports?
I hear this a lot from sports people. I have heard some athletes go even further by suggesting they won because God wanted them to win. Really? Is that what God is all about?
In my humble opinion the greatest state we can be in, is a state of gratitude. When we look at our life with a sense of appreciation and thanks, at least for that moment we stop focusing on what we don’t have. We stop comparing and thus we are content and at peace.
If as an individual that takes shape in prayer and thanking God, then I’m 100% cool with that, but is it necessary to do it on national TV?
God probably wasn’t watching Fox at the time and a quiet word would probably have done the job equally well, wouldn’t it? Or is there another reason I’m missing?
Whatever your view on God, The Source, Jehovah, Vishnu, Jah, Allah or whatever name resonates with you, humor me on this thought process for a moment.
Leave any beliefs to one side just for a short while if you can. I know it’s not easy when it comes to matters of Faith, but see what you can do because I’m going share with you what I believe in about God.
What I Believe About God
I respect almost all religions even if I don’t subscribe to them. Some while ago I got accused by an angry reader in the comment section of this post of being “obviously anti-Catholic’. I was slightly taken aback by that, not least because I have a Catholic wife and was married in a Catholic Church.
When I say I respect almost all religions, here is where I start to struggle. This opinion is formed because of my values and my beliefs and as such it’s neither right nor wrong. It’s just an opinion based on information I have been exposed to in my life.
I can’t understand exclusive religions. I can’t understand the mindset that says “Because you don’t believe what I believe, you’re less worthy than me and you’re going to hell” and “Because you were born in a different country to me God hates you and will punish you”
How can we even remotely comprehend the intelligence we’re talking about when as a species we don’t even know how our own brain works at a cellular level, we can’t cure the common cold and run around shooting and bombing people that don’t agree with us?
Yet some people believe they cannot only comprehend it, but know enough to second guess it and understand Its motives.
That seems a mixture of crass stupidity and arrogance to me, but then again, what do I know? And I’m being genuine about that.
This post wasn’t designed to offend anybody, far from it. I just wanted to throw some thoughts out there and see what the response was. I’d love to get your take on it and feel free to vilify me!
Tim Brownson is a Certified Life Coach and has been unsticking people and helping them reach their true potential since 2005. If you would like to know how he can help you
Tim,
I am deeply offended! How dare you criticize Paula Abdul! (;
Whoaa, first to crucify Tim!
I have a hard time with anyone who calls themselves religious, then casts the stone of judgment on another. So along those lines I am wholly onboard with your post Tim.
I find it hard to believe that those innocent souls who occupy lands not heard from by Christ, Buddha, Mohammad, or any other spiritual guides to be doomed to eternal damnation.
May we all be judged in our final hour by how our lives brought quality, goodness, and joy to others!
Great post Tim!
Darn it, Pace scooped me!
Tim,
Great summary, and I applaud you for stating your beliefs regardless of the consequences. I too struggle with the balance of expressing my true thoughts and trying not to turn-off potential members. One of our members recently sited ol’ Alby Einstein in discussing God: Einstein Was the Man. I agree with his and your conclusion, if you are a skeptic you aren’t going to ‘figure it out’ so why abuse yourself trying! Thanks for not selling out.
Although I have to say I think I trumped you on writing something that may potentially turn off people – by writing a blog about gurus on twitter when most of my followers are self-helpers 1,000,000 Gurus.
Derek :-)
To be honest, Tim, I agree with much of what you say here. For a long time I considered myself to be an agnostic verging on atheist – as a Brit, that’s perhaps unsurprising ;-)
However, more recently things have changed and I now do believe in a higher power but not one that is prescribed and mediated through organized religion. Instead, I’m exploring what spirituality means to me and I am following my own path to discover my own essential truth. That doesn’t mean that I’m anti-religion, rather that I respect that all individuals have the right to subscribe to whatever life-view is right for them and I expect that respect in return.
Idealistic? Maybe. Naive? Probably. But I’m also a committed optimist!
Thanks for sharing such a thought-provoking post.
Amy
xx
I thought all religions were exclusive.
The best explanation of the difference between spirituality & religion I’ve heard is this:
Religion is based on belief.
Spirituality is based on experience.
That works for me.
@ Pace – I agree I am ashamed of myself. I shall say 3 Hail Paula’s and drink a bottle of gin as penance.
@ Mike – Quality, goodness and joy, I like that!
@ Derek – I am a Guru and if from now you could call me Guru Tim, that would be nice. Thanks in antici[ation.
@ Amy – I got told earlier it was because I’m getting old and a lot nearer death that I’m thinking about this stuff!
@ Vered – Really? In what respect?
@ Si – I too really like that definition, thanks!
@ Pace- that was hysterical!
@ Tim- God is too big for one religion anyway. Like you said, It annoys me too when religions say they are 100% correct and everyone else is going to hell. What a load of arrogant crap. God and Religion have next to nothing to do with each other anymore. Ever go to church, everyone is all smiles and hugs until you get out to the parking lot- then is everyone for themselves. Cars are being cut off, and fingers are flying!
I’m spiritual by nature and heritage.
I completely agree with you Tim.
I respect every ones views and choices and find the history behind the religions interesting.
Thanks for putting this into *mainstream* thought.
Tim- great post! You’ve earned a place in my RSS reader with that one. Couple things, first off, due to my anal nature: the universe is around 13.7 billion light years in radius and, according to most theories still expanding.
That mundanity out of the way: I’m in the same boat with you. Ten years ago, even five I would have snorted derisively at the idea of God. More than anything, two things led to my becoming a believer again: Buddhist practice helped me let go of my grudge(s) against God, and reading Rumi led me to a new understanding of God.
I find religious exclusivity more sociological than philosophical; it’s an embodiment of the need to feel that your group is superior to other groups. I kind of nod towards Nietzsche at this point in that I reserve a rather respectful place for Jesus while acknowledging the many problems with the social institutions of Christianity.
Hi Tim,
I think there is so much we don’t understand (so I agree with you) – how can we say, with any complete certainty that what we believe, or the religion we follow – that what they believe is completely accurate. There’s no way we can.
Me? I believe. And I also accept other religions – although I have a hard time with those who single out certain “types” of people – that seems wrong to me…
@ Jay – LOL, I can imagine that. I do always strugle to understand religious people that believe in the death penalty and war. Not sure Jesus would have agreed.
@ Amy – Yep the history is indeed interesting and sometimes a little scary!
@ Ian – Thanks for that! Of course if I get out there and you’re wrong and it’s nearer than that I shall demand an apology. BTW, the link to your blog doesn’t work, but here it is: http://igcampbell.com/blog/
@ Lance – I think there is more we don’t know than do to be honest with you.
I think behavior is the most important aspect of spirituality.
There are many religions out there. And I got some news… The greatest determinant factor of what religion someone is, is where they were born.
If you were born in some parts of China, you’re probably Buddhist. If you were born in the Philippines, you’re probably Catholic. If you were born in India, you’re probably Hindu.
Really, that’s the factor that has the greatest influence on what someone’s religious faith is.
I want to know what are the 16 cateogories of human life ?
Ps> I am a believer in Jesus Christ -God son Savior :)
and yet you would be surprised on who God uses to get the message across!
@ BF – Fully agree and that was what I was alluding to.
@ Anony Mouse – I have no idea what you’re talking about.
Hi Tim, my husband had the same sort of culture shock when he moved here. Especially the praying before meals in restaurants and Bible study during work hours, I remember him coming home and telling me “You won’t believe what they do at NewJobPlace!”. Of course, I hardly notice as it’s what I grew up on.
Even so, I’m an Atheist who really doesn’t spend much time trying to figure anything out. I’ve loads of respect for people who find peace in religion and find inspiration to do good because of it. One of my sons goes to a church run preschool and I’m most impressed with their commitment to service to the community (including low cost preschool!).
What I don’t care for is when people use their religion as an excuse to judge others or exclude or deny public school children the benefit of a proper science education. I think that might be part of the reason people are so vocal about it here, because it’s a means to signal to others “Hey, I’m a good person, I believe in what you do!”
That might be just me being cynical because I’ve been told by others that it’s quite sincere. Obviously, God would hear them silently but part of their mandate is to also give witness to the great things God does to those of us who don’t know what they are thinking.
Hi Tim – I wish you hadn’t brought this subject up it’s something I’ve struggled with for years and now, I’m probably not going to be able to shut up.
Like you, being from the UK, I don’t know many people who go to church. I was christened in a church and my kids were too, because a lot of people in the UK, I believed that something terrible would happen, if you died without having been christened.
I even went so far as getting confirmed and started to go to church sometimes. But, listening to all the gossiping and bitching after the service got me thinking that the church thing wasn’t really something that God actually wants us to do.
The final straw was when some new people turned up at the church and they were actually asked to move, because they’d taken the seats of some regulars at the front.
After that I didn’t do religion or spirituality for a while. Then for a few years, I started using witchcraft (white) instead. I guess I still believe that magic is kind of similar to praying.
I must admit that during that time – I’d kind of stopped believing in God – I believed in a whole bunch of Gods and Goddesses instead. But things kind of went wrong on the magic front and I stopped believing in any kind of God at all. I got the idea into my head that people really weren’t as important as they believed they were and after death – there simply wouldn’t be anything there.
Anyway, like you – I do believe in God now but I’m not completely certain about what he/she/it is. I don’t believe he’s some old bloke with white hair who sits on a cloud. I’m more into the idea that God is some sort of invisible power or force, which is inside us, around us and everywhere. But I’m keeping an open mind on this, as I really don’t have a clue.
As for religion – I can see why some people would join a particular one. I think it gives them some sort of guidance system. When they’re in the shit, their religion usually has some sort of rule to follow, so they know what to do (whether it’s good or bad). The rest of us just have to work it out for ourselves.
But, I don’t think I would join a particular church myself because, like you, I don’t like the way that many of them operate on a “it’s my way or the highway” basis. And hating and bombing folk just because they don’t agree, just doesn’t seem right.
Like you, I also struggle with the folk who make out like they know exactly what God and the Universe is, when we don’t even know enough about how to use our own brains to their full potential. I guess some of them might truly believe they know. I also suspect that some of them are just scammers who want to sell folk a whole bunch of books on the subject.
I wrote something, then re-wrote, then decided that I’d rather not get into this. Sorry. Thank you for an interesting discussion.
I’ve grown up as an atheist. All along I believed all those God-believers were silly and misguided for believing God exists just because they were brought up that way.
Recently I realized I could be just as silly and misguided for NOT believing God exists because I was brought up that way :p
So I decided to do what every good scientist would do. Experiment!
I’m planning to do a thirty-day trial, during which I will absolutely and without exceptions believe in God. (I haven’t quite decided on my definition of “God” yet.) Then I’ll decide whether believing in God is right for me or not. I’m planning this for April/May, because hopefully my schedule will clear up a bit by then.
As a non-beleiver who has often thought that he’d be burned at the stake in any place other than the great Industrial Northeast, I see the “higher being” that each person follows as one invented in his/her head. This works well until we draw up rules for the rest of the neighborhood (or mebbe the rest of civilization) to follow.
I wish I had a solution that would freely allow each beleiver to worship in the manner they wanted. Just what, when and how worship manifests itself should be the individuals’ choice. Unfortunately, the old human foible of violating borders and stepping on toes crops up here in its usual way. It makes me think that just as we have the propensity to seek out a “higher” source (for all things both good and evil),there is a very much animal-like tendency here to guard our dens and the territory around them with our lives.
As one of the 40% of the population that beleives in evolution, I can only hope that humanity can figure out a better way as the world population keeps getting bigger and the planet, alas, seems to shrink more every day.
@ Cath – Thanks for the guest post! Wow I nearly spat coffee over my screen when you mentioned the witchcraft thing. Seriously fascinating!
I have thought a lot about the theory that we are all God and that God resides in us. I like that theory, it makes sense to me.
I often wonder what people in 500 years time will make of our views. There is no reason to believe they’ll think we were any more sophisticated than we do people from the 16th C when stake burnings were cool and trendy under Elizabeth.
@ Tracy – With 5 kids I’m not that surprised you don’t have time to ponder this! Reading what you had to say I think the key word is tolerance. It’s a lack of tolerance that bugs me. Then again the easy response would be to say I am being intolerant of intolerant people. Agggh!
@ Vered – No probs and I do understand, although I would have loved to have heard your take.
@ Vlad – That’s a cool idea mate and I’m intrigued to hear how it goes
@ Bill – I think the Dalia Lama summed up what you’re trying to say when he said he believed there should be 6.5 billion religions, one for each person on the Planet. I like that.
ooh, Tim… this is a daring adventure!
For me, all spiritual systems or communities are offering metaphors – stories that are an attempt to explain/ make meaning of stuff that’s too big/ different to the material world for us to fully explain/ understand.
For me the issue of what’s TRUE or FALSE is not important (mostly because it’s all just too big and too much info for my little brain, and I just don’t have the attention span for the endless pseudo-scientific evidence that most people try to use to say that their spiritual system is the indisputable one-and-only truth). It’s all made up, as far as I’m concerned.
What matters more to me is whether the metaphors are USEFUL. If the metaphors I use to explain why I exist/ how the world was created/ how I should relate to others/ what food I should eat/ what to spend my daily hours doing are useful, then who cares whether or not it’s true.
My personal criteria for determining whether a metaphor is useful:
- Does it make me feel more free?
- Does it enable others to feel more free?
I believe that, at our essence, we all would make positive and loving contributions to other people’s lives if we felt totally free to be our authentic selves. That’s just one of my metaphors, and I have no actual evidence to prove it’s true. But it’s a useful metaphor that makes me feel more free, and I think it let’s others feel more free too.
Ahhh, you brave young lad. What a topic to get great conversations going.
As for me, I’m not sure what I believe. I think there is a higher power, I also think that it may be the collective “us”.
George
Hey Timbo:
I love discussions such as this, I do! I believe I went over this once with you in a coaching session, but I’d like to throw it out to the minions here: One of the two or three things I recall from Philosophy 101 is that we peeps are finite creatures and, as such, cannot comprehend the infinite (including possibly this universe as well as any others, and also gods and/or greater powers). Accepting the reasonable-sounding quality of that, I immediately stopped any fretting I may have been doing over such things and simply began going with what felt correct, spiritually speaking.
And regardless of what I personally believe, I’ve long had a great respect and admiration for Judiasm and Catholism for different reasons, but a big common one is that they DO NOT recruit like some other organized religions. And not only do they not recruit, they don’t even WANT YOU, really….you have to jump through a hoop or two to prove your sincerity and earn your place in the fold. Me, I greatly prefer that to (also) sincere persons trying to bear (to me, unwanted) witness (i.e. recruit).
BUT! Here’s what I really wanted to say, along about 10 mins ago: IF it is true that we cannot conceive or comprehend of the infinite, being bound by our finiteness—and I accept that as true—then I believe it is entirely possible that what EVERYONE believes happens after death IS what happens!
In other words, I think we are all correct in our religious, non-religious, spiritual, etc. beliefs concerning The Next Thing. I believe there’s enough room in this Big (Tim) Universe for everyone’s perceived reality.
So there you go, that’s my take. Now go on withya.
moonpie 8)
@ Cathy – Well metaphors are certainly incredibly powerful things and you may be on to something. Certainly in a coaching environment that is exactly why we use metaphors, to help somebody think differently and hence be free from their shackles. I’d never actually thought about it like that before, so thanks for that!
@ George – Bravery and stupidity are often confused! Maybe if I was really brave I would have posted it before now ;-)
@ Moonpie – I dunno about that. Doesn’t that in some respect make those religions worse, the fact they don’t want others? I’m not really sure what I think about that but I am sure it embeds the whole luck of birth aspect to it.
Seeing as I believe there are 6.5 billion realities I really should agree with the latter part, shouldn’t I?
God does not watch Fox. And yes, the end of the universe is indeed Cleveland. Sorry to ruin that one for you.
Hi again Tim – I told you I wouldn’t be able to shut up. This post has made me think a lot though. I had only read the old fashioned version of the Bible and I didn’t understand a lot of it because of the weird words.
So, I’m having a read through one of the free Bible’s the kids got from school to see if I can understand it better. I’m liking it already – it seems like everyone hated the taxman then too.
To preface my comment.. I’m a bad Catholic, I never go to church, I pray once or twice a year, and I don’t thank God in public.
I think of God as something “bigger than us”, whatever it is, and I think there is more harm in having NO faith, than having it. I don’t understand why the non-believers always feel the need act like believers are naive or ignorant. I’d rather believe in something than nothing at all, even if it’s just for peace of mind.
I think everyone believes in the same god, no matter what religion they follow. Every religion just has a different set of stories and rules. Like you, I don’t agree with a few of them, but who am I to judge?
On the other hand, I think it’s honorable (though slightly annoying) when people thank god out loud for their achievements. I’d say that’s as humble as you can get. And I assume people who do it are doing it for themselves, not God.
I don’t remember what my point was, other than God watching Fox probably has nothing to do with why he thanked him on national TV.
:)
Hey Tim~
Kudos to you for writing about religion. I often shy away just because it’s easy to offend people, but it’s an important topic to tackle!
I agree with you about the exclusivity. What’s interesting is that people will say, “I have faith this is right” and then use that faith to identify everyone else as wrong. I wonder what makes that faith any smarter than faith in a different religion? What makes anyone so sure they know the one “real truth” just because it makes sense based on their experiences?
Incidentally, I enjoy reading your comments almost as much as your blog. You inspire provocative conversations. Thanks :D
~Lori
OMG Tim, Why do you do this to me? You know posting this is like putting chocolate chips cookies on the table and asking me not to eat them. I can’t help myself.
> Spirituality vs Religion: Spirituality is about developing a relationship with God, Religion is about ceremony and ritual. You can be very “religious” and not know God at all. Even Jesus commented to the Pharisees of his time that they were very religious but missed the mark.
> I am Christian. I believe that Jesus is God the son part of the triune God along with God the Father and God the Spirit. In the Christian faith, Jesus has declared that he is the way , the truth , and the life; that no one can come to the Father except through him. So it is not Christians or me that is saying that believing in Christ is the only way. It is Jesus himself who does. So to believe in Jesus, Savior of sin, God and Creator, is to believe that other beliefs, while deserving of respect, are wrong. You can believe in elves very sincerely and be sincerely wrong. At the same time, it is not my place to judge wither someone will go to hell. That is between them and God. You are right Tim, it would be arrogant of me to say what is in a person’s heart. As a Christian, it is my place to share the good news of Jesus as Savior and God. I am supposed to plant seeds. It is not my job to “convert” anyone. I don’t have that power or authority to do that.
>Many are turned off of people of faith such as Jay mentioned above. These “Christians” preach one thing and live another life. If a person is a true believer there will be fruits reflecting his belief. I would suggest these people who fly fingers in the parking lot or either not really believers, or are believers and struggle with sin (as we all do).
>Tim, you said how can people of faith believe in the death penalty. While God is merciful, he is also just. There are many examples in the Bible where people were justly killed as a consequences for their actions. “Thou shalt not kill”, was really “thou shalt not murder”. Killing is different than murder. We are also commanded to follow the law unless it contradicts God’s law. Capital punishment doesn’t conflict with God’s law.
>Does God care who wins the super bowl? I don’t really know. God’s ways are higher than mine. Could it be that if a certain team won, it might make a difference to someone in Tennessee? Only God can say. It may be that when that player, thanked Jesus, it planted a seed of faith in someone somewhere. God can use us all, in any way he sees fit. I don’t know all the pieces of God’s puzzle to know the effect of thanking Jesus on TV might have on someone somewhere. But if it possibly can, than the player is doing what is in his heart to do. When I won an award a couple of years ago, I thanked God in my acceptance speech. I felt that it was God that gave me my talents and abilities. It was God that put me in a place where I could win the award.I thanked God for the award. To not IMHO, would be saying I did it all myself without any help, gifting, or whatever from God. I wanted to glorify the God who knows me, as nothing as I am, and loved me in spite of my sin. I will tell anyone about that.
What are my thoughts on God? Thanks for asking Tim. ;-)
Hola Tim, I am just back from a “talking holiday” in Spain, where as a mostly Catholic country the topic of religion was discussed a couple of times. Although the country is still Catholic out of all the Spaniards very few ‘believed’ and even less went to church.
Religion is a confusing issue for me, I was brought up with no religion so have always been free to make up my own mind. During my troublesome teens I spent some time with a youth missionary group, and still get goosebumps remembering one particular religious epiphany which left me in no doubt that there was a god.
25 years later and I would class myself as spiritual, my main belief would be in Karma and what goes around comes around. I think there is a force within us that we use to contribute on a universal level, (allowing the Law of Attraction to work, etc).
As you know, my long term goal is to move to the states, but I have to admit to some trepidation over how religion is perceived and practiced particularly in Florida which is where I’d like to live.
I feel the greatest loss in the UK with declining church congregations is community. On one of the discussions in Spain an enlightened American told me a little about the church he was involved in, a Unitarian church which sounded appealing and something I will investigate further.
From their about us page-
Unitarian Universalism is a liberal religion with Jewish-Christian roots. It has no creed. It affirms the worth of human beings, advocates freedom of belief and the search for advancing truth, and tries to provide a warm, open, supportive community for people who believe that ethical living is the supreme witness of religion.
Hi Laurie, Are you sure murder and kill are two different things? I know there’s a lot of mistakes on the Internet but I read that the first use of the word murderer was actually a misprint in an old version of the Bible – it was meant to say murmurer: http://podictionary.com/?p=436
I’m wondering who it was who decided that there was a difference between murdering and killing. In the Bible it definitely says that you shouldn’t kill. And I would hate to think that people were being misled into believing some types of killing were ok like – the death penalty, war and using excessive violence on someone, until they “accidentally” died.
I might be wrong – maybe God did say at some point that some sorts of killing were ok. But the Ten Commandments seem fairly straight forward to me and I’m betting that if everyone stuck to them, we wouldn’t need any other laws, rules, or twisting of words. What do you think?
@ Johnny – So Rupert Murdock isn’t God then? Is that what you’re saying?
@ Amanda – A ‘bad’ Catholic, huh? I have had more Catholic clients than any other religion and the one thing they ALL bring to the party is guilt and the belief that they aren’t good enough. That saddens me.
@ Lori – That is EXACTLY it. Those very same people would have had equal faith in another religion if they’d had a different upbringing. Lucky they were born into the right one ;-)
And yeh the comments here are brilliant!I’ve said it before, but I honestly think I have some of the best commenters going.
@ Cath – LOL, the poor tax man, he’s only doing his job! I tried to read the bible once and just ended up turning to the back to see what happened. Something about 4 guys on horses.
@ Laurie – I get all that and would just say this. If you’d been born in Tehran you would be defending Islam with equal certainty about being right. With equal faith in other words.
It’s also very difficult to tell somebody they deserve respect, but they’re wrong. In fact you’re telling most of the Globe that you’re right and they’re wrong. The word ‘respect’ in that scenario is just paying lip service. I still love ya though ;-)
@ Michelle – I badly want to believe in Karma that would be so cool. The only thing is though, if it does work like that it has to do so over multiple life times imho. I’ve seen too many selfish people ‘succeed’ and live long and prosperous lives to think otherwise. But then I can’t wrap my head round the baby dying within hours of birth. Can that really be Karma?
Hi, What a great conversation. I was not religious at all for a good deal of my life, if not hostile to organized religion. In 2000 I was received into the Catholic Church, so I’ve been on many sides of these questions. Even though I believe truth is to be found in my church, I do not believe that those outside the church are doomed to hell. Catholicism teaches that all life is sacred, man and woman having been created by God in his image. Only God can judge where a person goes in the next life. The best expression of faith I know is a quote from St. Francis – Preach the Gospel always and if necessary use words. Few people are converted to a particular faith – or non-faith – through argument or intellectual inquiry. Far more often, conversion comes from our experience and through the example of others we are close to.
Religion is a side effect of human (both singular and as a group) psychology when faced with concepts the mind struggles to rationalize. Your post demonstrates this quite well as it goes.
It’s a bit like a newbie to computers or the Internet. A newbie might be able to learn how to use the computer quite well, but their understanding of the internal operations is minimal/none. Those who don’t want to get into the nitty gritty details just “know” that the computer will work and do what they want, much as a religious believer “knows” God exists. This doesn’t mean they’re wrong to feel that way, just that it’s not strictly, formally correct – and nor is theism, but if it helps you cope with the understanding of the higher abstractions, that’s cool!
I am not a believer in the theistic sense, but I’ve spent (and spend) a lot of time learning about these details. I have a reasonable (though very much amateur!) understanding of several key areas of science behind the universe’s construction. Prior to learning this stuff, yes, I was more of a “let’s just assume a higher being willed it to be” and let it get on with itself kinda person.
Hi Tim,
I think God/spirit and our values are related. If people respect all beliefs I think they have a problem (I value intelligence and discrimination).
If I think that all claims are equally valid then I presume to judge all claims: a claim to omniscience. I’m sceptical of limited mortals like you and me claiming omniscience.
@Cath Lawson- The Bible does teach about capital punishment. In the very first book of the Bible God clearly communicates his position with respect to capital punishment: “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed;for in the image of God has God made man.” (Genesis 9:6) God instituted capital punishment in the early stages of human civilization before the Mosaic Law, and capital punishment is never abrogated by Jesus or the apostles. Thus, capital punishment appears to be an enduring moral principal under-girding the sanctity of life. As well, God led the way in many a war to protect the tribe of Israel and the lineage that would lead to Christ. I hope this helps. :o)
@Tim- If I seek God no matter where I live, I will find him. So no I don’t think I would believe different than I do now because of the family I was born into. God is a really big God. He can lead me to truth if I want to go.
I am not telling others they are wrong. Like I said, Jesus Christ is. I know it is semantics. Jesus said he was God and he was the only way to the Father. If he is wrong and he is not the only way, he is a liar and not God at all and the whole salvation thing on the cross was a tragic farce. Only because he was sinless did his sacrifice atone for the sin of man. If he wasn’t sinless (by claiming to be God and being the only way etc) then he was just a liar on a cross.
I don’t think I am giving lip service to respect others for believing what they believe even if I don’t agree. If I were for some reason in a Mosque and they were praying, I would stand quietly and let them pray out of respect for them and what they believe. I don’t have join in or agree.
Hey Tim, I’m glad your pondering God and all. It was a cool thing to write a post on it and I appreciate that your readers have allowed me my opinion without feeling the need to stomp on me. That is what makes this blog a great thing. Big hugs to all! I still love ya too Tim! ;o)
Thanks for your article. I’m finding more folks on the web that are not afraid to question certain aspects of fundamental Christianity. I also believe that God is much bigger than the box that we try to put him in. Keep the faith!
God is all that is, and I’m pretty sure stuff exists so yes, I believe in God.
What I don’t believe in is some big patriarch in the sky who felt a bit bored so invented little unworthy mortals who would be damned for eternity if they did anything he had caused them naturally to want to do.
Thanks Laurie – I wondered about that a lot. So – it seems capital punishment is ok, if someone has committed murder. As I said to Tim, until now, I’d only read the old-fashioned worded Bible. And I found a lot of the words hard to understand. So your info is really helpful.
I’m not either for or against capital punishment – there are too many pros and cons. We don’t have it here in the UK anymore. But we do have some treatment of murderers that I really find difficult to understand.
For example, a few years ago, two boys kidnapped, tortured and murdered a toddler. It appeared the whole thing was pre-meditated. Yet they were only locked up for a few years, then they were released, given new identities and a whole heap of the taxpayers money.
To me, that seems wrong and it’s like rewarding people for killing. Does the Bible say anything about that? And who would it blame for that murder, the boys who committed it, or the people who brought them up?
Tim – I hope you don’t mind me asking these questions on here. Delete this one if you think it’s better, as I know a lot of people are still v upset about this case.
@ Brad – I like to hear from people that have ‘switched sides’ in any debate. Rightly or wrongly I have a tendency to value their opinion a little more. Thanks for sharing.
@ Peter – I do find it fascinating that some top scientists having a belief in God and some don’t. I think that demonstrates the complexity of the issue and that is a huge understatement.
@ Evan – You skeptical? No way! ;-)
@ Laurie – A couple of things. If you’d been born a Buddhist you wouldn’t believe in the death penalty. If you’d been born a Muslim you’d believe Mohammed was the Prophet of God and that the Koran is the truth. That’s what I mean. I understand you’d still believe in God but your views of God would be different and thanks for posting them. BTW, I’m sure there are other people that have read this that fully endorse your viewpoint.
@ Steve – That word fundamentalism, it’s frightening, isn’t it?
@ Hilary – Yep.
@ Cath – I don’t mind at all. I presume you’re referring to the Jamie Bulger case? My nephew worked closely on that, in fact he worked with Venables for some time. Trust me it’s not always like the papers play it out to be. Both boys served their full sentence (8 years) and if they hadn’t been given anonymity they would have been taken out. Is that really what we want to happen, somebody serves their sentence and THEN gets murdered?
Was 8 years enough? Probably not, but that was all the law allowed the Judge to do bearing in mind the boys were only 10 years old. Michael Howard tried to increase the sentence to (I think) 15 years but it was deemed unlawful.
Hi Tim – Yes it was the Jamie Bulger case. It was a horrible case. And while I can understand why they have been given anonymity, the sentence does seem really short. I would hate to think that they were living in my community and I didn’t know about it. But as you say – they could only pass a sentence that was legally allowed.
And, I guess that if God is real, their proper punishment will be in the next world. I’m just wondering, given their age, who it will be who is punished. From what I’ve read so far, it’s seems like anyone who causes a child to sin will be punished. I suppose we would need to know the background of these kids to know if their parents could have been responsible for what they did.
I had a friend round, on the day I read your post and she referred to the Mary Bell case (I don’t really remember much about that – probably too young). She was also a child murderer who was given anonymity and released. My friend read a book about it and she believed her childhood was so horrendous that she could understand why she wound up murdering other children.
Anyway, this has been an interesting subject. And I’m halfway through the new version of the Bible now.
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The only thing I have to say is this, I am a believer in the Bible and what if you are all wrong? I have nothing to lose by believing…it makes me a better person…the Holy Spirit guides my thoughts, actions, etc. I don’t judge non believers because the Bible teaches me that that is not my job…it is God’s. I am not “all-knowing” so I cannot say if there are other gods that are called other things but are the same as my God…all I can say is that the Bible teaches that there is one way to heaven and that is through Jesus…I happen to believe in the Bible and make no excuses that I do. I have nothing to lose, if I am right, I spend eternity/infinity in a wonderful place, if I am wrong, what did I have to lose? On the other hand, If you are wrong, you would then be condemned to an eternal state of hell, not by me, but by God because of your disbelief….
What you propose here is a simplification of Pascal’s Wager, Koddi. And there’s a big problem with it: what if you’re wrong about which God is real?
According to your logic, one would need to find time to worship and revere every major god in every religion so as to safeguard oneself from hell.
And yet, there’s a more immediate problem with Pascal’s wager. If I pretend to believe what I don’t believe (re: Christianity or any other exclusivist religion) I create a hell on earth for myself by denying my own personality and beliefs. By denying myself for the sake of extrinsic gains like social acceptance or even heavenly reward, I forsake what Carl Jung called individuation. By forsaking individuation, I fail to meet my human potential. Not only that, but I put myself at risk for all matters of neuroses.
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Do all religions condemn non-believers to eternal hell?
Who is to say that any of us are right…I can only say that I am where I am supposed to be in my belief system and I know that because I have a peaceful heart, a peaceful life free of stress and free of the desire to be accepted by the world. My faith is simplistic…there is nothing complicated about it…it is intellectuals that make it complicated. You can ask “what if’s” all day long, but tomorrow when you wake up, you will still be asking more what-ifs. I don’t have to do that, I have a peace that that the Bible, that has withstood since the beginning of time is what I am supposed to believe in…my obedience to that is what brings me my peace.
Sorry, I suppose I should amend (realized it after the fact) my original statement to read “one would need to find time to worship and revere every major god in every exclusivistic religion so as to safeguard oneself from hell.”
And I understand that your obedience is what brings you peace; I’ve never found peace in obeying, though. I find my peace in exploring; every “what if” expands me a little further, makes me more whole. I’m not sure that asking “what if” should be a hellworthy, or even scornworthy, offense.
We disagree, is all. Not the end of the world! (I hope) :)
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@ Cath – Or maybe God doesn’t punish. Maybe (s)he’s loving, forgiving and merciful? I can’t get my head round the fact that something so intelligent goes in for revenge, I really can’t.
@ koddi- The peace bit is very cool and I respect your opinions. It does sound a tad like you’re covering your basis by saying that you have nothing to lose. It almost sounds like you’re beliefs stem from fear that if you don’t follow the Bible you’ll be damned.
There are a great many contradictions in the Bible that people skate over and that concerns me. It also concerns me that if it was written today the authors would be ridiculed, but because it is centuries old it takes on more meaning.
Laurie spoke of execution as being ok according to God, yet Jesus constantly preached non-violence. He who cast the first stone etc. How does that work then?
Trying to get people to agree on something that happened two weeks ago is problematical, yet some of the bible was written hundreds of years AFTER the event and many people take it as gospel. Sorry, that’s a poor joke :-)
Thanks for your comments.
@ Ian – That was a brilliant comment and had me scuttling to Google ;-) Thanks to you too.
I agree that we disagree and it is not the end of the world! :) Obedience does not come easy to us, our human nature goes against it…but when you can achieve it, at least to some small degree, it is the most freeing, unbelievable feeling in the world. I will pray that some day, in God’s perfect timing, you will feel that peace…
“The peace of God which transcends all understanding”. True peace is not found in positive thinking, in absence of conflict or in good feelings, it come from knowing that God is in control and we don’t need to worry about the things of the world, our economy, our corrupt government, greed, etc. these are all things that God has told us, through His word, will happen. The state of our world is no surprise to God…and neither is the end.
May God bless your life with His peace!
@ koddi – Yeh we’re cool! It’s funny because I think peace is THE #1 meta value. I do think that there are plenty of non-religious people that find it though. I’m close ;-)
Hi Tim,
I’m not a fundamentalist anymore. I do get annoyed though by the line that “there are many contradictions in the Bible”. So, name them.
Is justice and mercy a contradiction? Do you mean Saul’s ‘three year reign’, the disagreements in timing of the different stories of Jesus’ death and resurrection? (as you can see I’ve read the Bible). If you wish to run the line that each faith has good points then I think you need to find a way to accommodate contradictions.
I do think that contradictions may undermine intellectual credibility – on the other hand life has a way of throwing up the productive reconciliation of contradiction.
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@ Evan – Then you’re easily annoyed.
HI Tim! I would like to suggest that the things in the Bible are not contradictory but complimentary. For example, if you and I went to a dinner party, you might write about John and Jane Doe as being there while I might write that Susie and Billy Smith were there. We are both correct in our story but didn’t mention the people in each other’s story so it looks like a contradiction.
The story of the “cast the first stone” is more than you realize. The Pharisees were attempting to pin Jesus in a corner so they would have reason to have him executed. They challenged his teachings and did not like that he was calling himself God. Also Jesus’s following was growing and the Pharisees didn’t want their power taken away. They spied on a couple committing adultery. They only grabbed the lady to throw on the ground to be stoned and left the man alone. They were trying to test Jesus to see if he would follow the Law and have her put to death. Jesus then took a stick and wrote in the dirt. Many scholars think he may have been writing the sins of the accusers in the dirt showing them they were deserving of death as well. Then Jesus made the comment about “He who is without sin, cast the first stone.” You can’t read a verse in the Bible and simply interpret it. You must read the context it was said in knowing the culture and what was going on at the time.
As far as the authenticity of the Bible, it is the most authentic book in history. The copies of the original manuscripts are extremely credible. With the way they transcribed the originals, there was no error. For example, if 1098 copies had the word “ran” in a certain place and one manuscript had the wood “rat” in the same place, it would easy to tell where the mistake was and correct it. Not all of the books were written hundreds of years afterward. The gospels were written by eyewitnesses and Luke was a researcher interviewing eyewitnesses.
God doesn’t go in for revenge. He allows consequences for our actions. If a parent disciplines his child you don’t say he is seeking revenge. God allows people freedom. Freedom to choose him or deny him, freedom to obey or not. When we refuse to obey, we suffer many natural consequences which is why God didn’t want us to sin in the first place.
@Ian- I too find excitement and peace in exploring and adventuring. God wants us to enjoy the life we have. The more we explore, the more we’ll appreciate the universe he has created. The “obedience” comes because God also wants to save us from things that will hurt us physically or emotionally. We can still live fully but do it without including things that will take that enjoyment out of life. I find the closer I am to God the more I feel free to explore and appreciate the world. The more I feel authentic and comfortable with being myself because who I was created to be is who I should be after all.
@ Cath- I’m not sure. I’ll get back to you.
This is a really interesting conversation. I appreciate everyones contribution.
Laurie
I totally agree!
I appreciate all the contributions as well; I suppose I’m hesitant to delve much deeper at this point because I’m weary of debating scripture with folk. I often find it to be counterproductive, and people on all sides get frustrated, defensive, or both. I’m pretty familiar with scripture; not an expert by any means, but familiar. My soul is just wearied by all the conflict around it, I suppose.
So I’m going to stick with the philosophical for now.
Laurie: I suppose it comes from a fundamental disagreement about what psychology calls locus of control; where you attribute the good and bad things in life. It can be internal or external, and usually is some measure of both. I tend toward an internal locus of control, which pretty much invalidates the idea of original sin; it doesn’t make sense to me that I’d be judged on anything but my own merits. Springing from that is a need to internalize all possible paths and create one organically; so I’m judged on my path, not how I follow a path laid out already.
I suppose the problem I have with most religions, not just Christianity, is that falling in love with the next world often means falling out of love with this one (to paraphrase Nietzsche, in his criticisms of Socrates). Spiritual psychologist Tom Yeomans said in an interview once that “it’s in the immediacy of a person’s experience that you find the soul” and I entirely agree with him. Our immediate experience shapes and defines us, and it’s on that that I hope to be judged rather than an impersonal codification or what seems these days to be an accounting system.
Ians last blog post..Blogging and Mental Health
Last night I started to answer Evan’s question about contradictions in the bible. I spent about 10 minutes reading stuff and then thought “What the hell am I doing this for?” LOL.
I had found no end of information and no end of counter information too. In fact I found the exact same argument that Laurie used above. Did you Google that by any chance Laurie you young rascal? ;-)
About 15 years ago I picked up a hitch-hiker coming out of London. The guy was a theology student and he was with me for about 2 hours. We had a great conversation most of which I’ve forgotten, but I can remember this.
He basically said that you can read whatever you want into the bible. You can support your argument no matter what side you’re coming from, it’s simply a matter of faith.
Robert Anton Wilson talks about the what the thinker thinks the prover proves. IOW, we simply look for evidence to back up what we already believe and that is what’s going on here. Nobody in this discussion, interesting though it is, is looking to be persuaded.
That is also the reason why I have a deep respect for people that change their mind in a major area of their life, which ever way they do that. It shows a willingness to accept that in the light of new evidence they now believe they were wrong. Admitting we’re wrong is one of the most difficult things for a human being to do. Of course they may still be wrong, but at least they’re admitting their frailties.
People more intelligent than me believe the Bible is the word of God. People more intelligent than me believe the Bible is a crock. People spend a lifetime studying the book and still come to different interpretations from each other. So somebody saying they have read it and this is how it is, does not impress me a whole lot.
Also, we have kind of got off the subject. The post wasn’t about the Bible, it was about God. It was also about MY belief that God doesn’t want people killing each other. And quite frankly just because somebody can find one passage in one book that was written hundreds of years ago that may or may not suggest the contrary does not sway that opinion. It’s belief and that’s a different matter altogether.
I hear many people talk about religion vs spirituality. I personally feel that spirituality is inclusive, rather than exclusive.
When I think about the word infinity, I’m reminding of something I read the other day. You have a starting point, say a back yard. You go up/outward say a mile or so at a time until you reach… this infinity. Infinity is quite a broad term, and I relate to what you said about it all. But if you think about it this way – same starting point, but looking down/inward. Do we know that everything we’re able to see and touch isn’t some type of “galaxy” in itself, so to speak? Sounds so bizarre or “out there”, but I’m not a Word Smith. I just like words.
Now, I think about the words, again. INfinity. INclusive. In-ward. Like a box in a box in a box, type of theory. We don’t know what size box we’re talking about here, so how do we even know how small the the most tiny one is?
I’m reminded of a book that I’m ‘studying’ and one of the recent lessons. “Vision is not limited to space & distance; does not depend on body’s eyes. Mind is it’s only source. Look within, rather than without.”
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Hi Tim – I wondered that. But then there’s so many things in the Bible that sound cruel and harsh. And it sounds like not everyone gets into heaven.
I’m sorry for dragging things off topic. I feel like I’ve turned your blog into Bible Lessons 101. But this post really changed how I spent me week.
I’m glad you say that folk who are extremely intelligent all have different interpretations of the Bible. I’m finding a lot of it tough to understand (even in proper English). I think the trouble is, I’m always looking for hard facts to help me make my decisions – and those facts aren’t always available.
Hi Laurie – No problems. I think I’m asking too many questions at once and also expecting way too much from you. Don’t feel like you have to answer them for me.
I read that bit about the adultery and folk wanting to stone the woman last night. Did I understand right that it means we can’t punish, or judge people for their sins, unless we’ve never sinned ourselves?
Re: The dinner party thing – I understand that. We would all observe and write about different things. Most of that stuff was written at a time when those involved where still alive.
I noticed that some of the writers were careful to make Herod and Pilate appear completely blameless. I’m wondering if that had to do with fear of what could happen to them, if they didn’t tell their version of the story that way?
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@ Shannon – A very cool perspective about the galaxies within us. I wonder what Quarks and Superstrings make of all this ;-)
@ Cath – It’s not a problem at all. I’m just saying that reaching a consensus will be a tad tricky!
@ Cath- In this story Jesus was emphasizing the importance of compassion and forgiveness. How many times do we judge others when we are sinful ourselves? The ultimate judgement is before God. We do judge all the time though. I judge the character of people so I can make decisions about what I want to expose myself to. The state judges people to help keep out city safe. But I don’t judge people for the sake of feeling self righteous or superior. I judge people to make decisions about my own life and the safety of our community.
I don’t believe the writers of the gospels were trying to be PC with Herod and Pilate. The writers suffered greatly to the point of death for preaching the gospel. Every disciple/apostle died for the cause of spreading the gospel except for John who was imprisoned for the rest of his life on an island for preaching (excluding Judas of course).
Back to the original title of this post, “Do you believe in God?” My answer is absolutely. Some people have a difficult time believing in an invisible God. But the order and complexity of the visible, physical universe eloquently testify to the existence of an “uncaused” first cause, or God. God was also revealed in the person of Jesus Christ.
So how did I come to “believe”? I was looking for a bus to walk in front of and instead I found Jesus pulling me back onto the curb. My life was in chronic chaos as I attempted to parent a violent bipolar teenage son, be married to a very depressed man, and keep a job where I had to be all things to all kids (teacher). I cried out for help and it came. People became a part of my life that gave me direction, I found a supportive church, God spoke to me through friends, situations, the Bible and dreams. One night I was in an incredible amount of pain and I prayed for some relief. My guts began to untwist and I felt a warm peace come over me that I can only explain as God. Since then, my life is so different. My marriage is wonderful. With the changes I made in myself, my hub began making changes in himself and we are in a better place now than ever before. My son, while still struggling, isn’t violent any more, I love life and just bask in the beauty of nature and the adventure of living. I find the more I love God, the more I love others. I feel that I can be myself and let the world deal with it. Turning to God and worshiping him is the best thing that could ever happen to me. I know that WHEN I go through tough times, I can survive because I don’t travel alone. The God of the universe is with me. That brings me peace and joy. It helps me persevere the storms. There is a great site out there, I am second, where you can hear what God has done for others. Brian Welch from the group Korn, and Steven Baldwin are a couple of folks that have videos on that site. You might find it interesting to see the difference that God has made in others lives. If you want to delete that site name Tim, I understand.
I hope all of you out there find God. He is incredibly awesome and will change your life. I say what I have said on this post not to “recruit” people into Christianity, as that is not my job. I say what I have said because I want for you what I have with God. I want good things for you all and that includes a relationship with God. It’s like those “magic eye books”. When you have life without God, it’s like looking at the picture and thinking it is pretty neat but you know there is more. Then you focus your eyes right (focus on God) and the 3D image comes into view and it is much more awesome than ever before. I would love for everyone to get to “magic eye” with God.
Hi Tim,
Well, you started it – nyah, nyah.
I grew up a fundamentalist and am no longer. This hasn’t lead me to reject God or believe that all belief/gods are equal. This was a pretty big change for me.
For me the spirit of Christ comes down to love of enemies in the ethical realm: I can’t say I follow this path terribly well. There are also metaphysical implications of Christ’s incarnation: taking our physicality seriously and so on.
These days I hope I don’t use my faith as a screen that I filter others through. I think that Jesus/spirit can accompany us on our journey as we encounter new things (fundamentalism as I experience wants to have the answers prior to the experience – this seems deathly to me: and Jesus/spirit is on the side of life).
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If the question is asked I normally say that I am a speptic athiest.
I was brought up in Ireland as a catholic and have been baptised, confirmed etc but it’s a long time since I have had any belief.
I tried reading about other religions to see if there was one that made more sense to me but it just seemed to me like “they can’t all be right”
What I am really interested in is the ‘nuts and bolts’ of religion. Why do we want to believe in a higher power?
what is it about the clothes, speech and mannerisms of a priest that makes them seem authorative?
Why does a trance state make people feel they are experiencing something divine?
Why does prayer make people feel good?
What can be learnt from extremists behaviour so that we can avoid the violence that sometimes come from their beliefs.
I’d like to be able to identify what creates the feeling of brotherhood, community, justice etc and focus on that rather than believing in something that simply can’t be proven rationally.
The only difference between a cult and a religion seems to be time or the number of people that believe.
I get the same negative connotation of ‘cult’ from pretty much every religion I’ve heard of because of the way the rules of a religion get abused.
Belief in something can be a wonderful thing, a postive thing in people’s lives but it seems to be built without a foundation in something real ( that’s probably the point right? )
May be I just want the wonderful without the belief…
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You’re not alone there, declan. I ask myself the same questions quite a lot, and still ask them. I’ve recently shaken off all attempts at attaching myself to a particular religion or belief system and taken to just calling myself a “Contemplative.” The one and only requirement is to keep asking questions, keep exploring, and never be satisfied with someone else’s answer.
You and I aren’t alone either in our wonderings. There’s a whole branch of sociology called ‘sociology of religion’ that studies these questions, and many philosophers did too (I’ll spare the crowd another Nietzche reference).
Towards the overall question of why, I tend toward Joseph Campbell and Carl Jung in that the power of myth is a strong and possibly necessary force in life, both private and communal. Medical Anthropologist and Shaman Alberto Villoldo put it a great way, which I’m going to paraphrase here: It’s not about some absolute truth. It’s about the stories we tell ourselves.
Want to get a point in about cults here: The reason why we have such a problem separating cult and religion by definition is that their separation is a modern construct; its root is the Latin ‘cultus’ or care, and refers to the actual practices of care a devotee engages in toward any god or shrine. It’s only since the beginning of the twentieth century that we see the negative connotation pop up. Originally it was aimed by Christian writers towards other Christian sects that claimed to follow the bible but, according to the writer, were deviating from it.
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@ Evan – Thanks for the further info.
@ Declan – A few times I have come close to writing a post on the trance state that is induced by the top Preachers. I was once told that the biggest purchaser of ‘Patterns of Hypnotic Technique’ the book that models the brilliant hypnotherapist Milton H Erickson, is Brigham Young University. Apparently they use it when training people to enter the Church. Urban myth? Maybe, I honestly don’t know. Great comment though, thanks a lot.
@ Ian – I’ve really enjoyed reading what you’ve had to say on this matter, you obviously know a lot more than I do. Maybe you’d consider a guest post at some stage when the dust has settled? ;-)
Thanks Tim; I wouldn’t say I know more than you. Just different stuff!
And I’m honored that you’d even think of a guest post. I am your humble servant! ;)
Ians last blog post..The Soul in Depression – Speaking of Faith
I live in Canada which for all intents and purposes is a secular country. Here in our country where multi-culturalism and diversity prevail walking into a room full of strangers and asking them if the believe in God is just not done. However, in online forums this question is frequently posed to rooms of complete strangers and it’s inevitably put to us by and America Christian evangelist, who lacks an appreciation of or respect for any other spiritual belief system. This has led me to develop a ZERO tolerance policy for those who badger strangers in online places and spaces. It has also led me to be grateful that I don’t live in the USA.
The best decision I ever made in my life was to toss the dogma and doctrine of Christianity into the trashcan, turn my back on the church, and learn how to meditate. Because when I did I found the universal stream of consciousness that is god. I cannot believe in that which I do not experience. What I experience is that when I meditate and all the things associated with my “self” like greed, anger, hate, etc. dissolve is that there is no self; there is no distinct being that is separate from the universal stream of pure consciousness — quiet joy, peace, love ie. god. Neither male nor female, neither good nor bad, neither light nor darkness but containing all there is and situate everywhere: the universal stream of consciousness flowing through all is god. Hence, god is found in everyone and in everything; god just keeps on is-ing.
@ Timethief – Another really cool perspective. I must say I love the US, but like any country it’s a long way from being perfect and I think Canada is much more like the UK than the US is.
I have no problems with any religion with the rather large caveat that it’s not rammed down disbelievers throats. Some people though believe that it is their duty to impose their faith (will) on others. They think they’re doing what is right and what God wants them to be doing. A bit like Muslim fundamentalists do. Two sides of the same coin.
Thanks a lot for posting your thoughts.
When talking of God… a very simple question that comes to mind is… does the Cosmos have a boundary! If it does… then what beyond! If it does not… how can the system be infinite? This analogy is best explained by… the Sacred Bhagavad Gita of Hinduism… the foremost of all sacred scriptures existing on Mother Earth.
As per the Sacred Bhagavad Gita of Hinduism… the whole existence of God and the Cosmos is an act of Maya (veil of illusion). In truth… the entire buildup of the Cosmos is a gaseous formation… clusters of atoms and molecules. When perceived from senses point of view… things appear solid!
As per the doctrine of Maya… the whole creation… the whole existence of the Cosmos exists as a thought of God! Yet, the physical existence of Cosmos cannot be denied! This analogy is further confirmed from the big bang theory. God Almighty… the cluster of all purified souls atmans in the Cosmos at a given point of time… the moment it explodes self… the Cosmos gets formed!
This confirms the saying that God exists everywhere. The hurtling souls’ atmans after the big bang continue on their cosmic sojourn. In the process these pure souls’ atmans gather impurities on the way. To cleanse themselves of the dross impurities within… starts the cosmic life cycle of every soul atman. The moment life supporting planets like Mother Earth evolve… life starts in the Cosmos!
The existence of life on Mother Earth… the existence of living beings is ample proof that God Almighty exists. Every single living being… the physical form has been manifested by the soul atman within to purify itself on its cosmic sojourn. The moment this soul atman reaches the last leg of cosmic life… the 8.4 millionth manifestation when human beings reach the stage of Enlightenment (kaivalya jnana) and finally salvation (moksha)… all is over for the soul atman within!
Bhagavad Gita of Hinduism contains everything worth knowable on the spiritual path. Available for only $.40 (Rs 20/=) at most railway stations of India… the knower of Bhagavad Gita finally becomes the knower of all… gains omniscience forever! The entity of God is best explained in Bhagavad Gita. This sacred document… Bhagavad Gita can never be understood literally.
All the 700 shlokas (verses)… the moment they become clear to one… we gain enlightenment!
Dear everybody
i do believe in god and i have written a book that has tons of scientific proves that there is a god (scientific , non emotional and non logical based arguments) i won’t post a link to my book her not be spamming but in case you are interested you can contact me
Good post! I believe there is a GOD. Life is too short to not believe in anything. When I look at my son who is 4 months old…I understand GOD….I don’t ask any questions because for my son to exist and be the little guy he is…I know there is a higher power.
Comedy should be everyone’s religion in my opinion.
Thanks!
Jim from CrapBlog.com’s last blog post was crap
HEY I BELIEVE IN GOD PRESENCE IN WORRY MOMENT OF OUR LIVES.
WE ARE TOO BUSY TO FEEL HIS PRESENCE. JUST STOP FOR FEW SECONDS OF YOUR BUSY LIFE TO FEEL HIM, YOU WILL FEEL THAT IS REALLY THERE WITH YOU ALWAYS.
I come from an agnostic point of view, I really don’t know if there’s anything out there. I’ll have to wait and see after I’m gone.
I do believe the major religions are the cause of turmoil and war in this world. I hope one day people will get their heads out of their butts and see that this fighting is pointless.
chicago offices last blog post..Launch of our new blog
Just a quick reply to Farouk’s comment: Maybe it wouldn’t be such a bad idea to take some time off from collecting “scientific proves” (sic) for God’s existence (which is somewhat an oxymoron anyway), in order to worry more about things much, much closer at hand – English grammar, for instance!
Tim,
Good post. God is everywhere…
If anyone is interested I am giving away a ASUS Netbook!
Thanks!!!
Jakes last post was so shit CommentLuv refused to pull the feed in
@ Jake – Actually my friend you are absolutely right God is everywhere. In fact it was him/her that just texted me and said:
“Can’t you see that knob Jake is spamming your blog? Go and smite him not once, not twice but thrice in a Biblical fashion. In fact if you can delete his links I’ll set to work sending a plague of locusts up his butt crack”
Who am I to argue?
Don’t bend down Jake ;-)
I wanted to apologize for putting a link to a my contest for a Netbook in you blog. I didn’t think you would mind.
If you could remove the harmful comments I would appreciate it.
Thanks and again my apologies.
Jake | Revive Your Lifes last blog post..RYL is Giving Away a Free Asus Netbook!!
@ Jake – Could this be a cunning plan to finally get your link in?? LMAO – no worries as long as you consider yourself smitted or smitten or whatever else it is ;-)
Thanks for stepping back in!
when we speeding and police in front of us we slow down . we said we believe in god but we always done something that opposite of the bible ,politician use god name to be elected ,church for profit and many more include myself so i guess we all faked and two face
I’m always amused when I encounter a professed atheist. My initial response is please tell me about this God you don’t believe in because I probably don’t believe in Him either. When one says they don’t believe in God typically they’re talking about some guy sitting on a thrown in heaven that hands out ice cream to those who pray for it. What nonsense! But how someone can look at this ordered universe in which we live and not believe in some higher power confounds me. Does water boil at 100 degrees Celsius at sea level? Everytime. Does electricity burn you if not used accordingly? Everytime. These are but two simple examples that YOU are not in control and there is a power greater than yourself. Not a grey bearded old man in the sky but… a force that we can use to better our lives if we learn to understand universal laws.
Hi Tim –
Holding strong opinion is fine, so long as that is what it is, opinion, and not a directive to the rest of the world.
I would wish my beliefs on you, but only for this reason – It works for me!
I will never put what I believe on anyone, but I WILL share what I believe any time I’m asked; as I’m sure you do too..
I can do that with total confidence because it is really conviction, rather than opinion – like I said, works for me!
:-D
Theories are ideas with lacks of proof.
Faith is believing in something because you know that it is right.
I believe in God because logically, to what I have seen in this world, God seems definite and inevitable. When I ponder the rules of the universe, knowing what is right and what is wrong, and the value behind life, I find that God surely must exist, and there is no other way.
Faith is believing, or a knowing that does not need proof.
To be honest, I just don’t know how anyone can think they know whether there is a supreme being or not. If they do for 100% certainly, they are certainly much smarter than me. Now whether a particular diety exists or not, can potentially be disproven.
“I get all that and would just say this. If you’d been born in Tehran you would be defending Islam with equal certainty about being right. With equal faith in other words.”
Yup, you did it. Just as I started thinking to myself that you are the first person to discuss religion online in a mature, respectful manner, you proved me wrong. What exactly are you implying about Islam, the religion of peace and surrender to God? and what do you know about Iran?
If you are about to list a bunch of incidents in which some radical terrorists who call themselves “Muslims” attacked innocent people “in the name of Islam/God” to justify your answer, then you deserve to be heard by no one, not even your own conscience.
@ Mona – Nah, it’s a bit more than that, my brother-in-law is a Muslim.
And I wasn’t about to list any incidents, that was in your own mind, a bit like your belief that you’re the only person talking about this in a respectful manner and the even sadder (almost dare I say paranoid belief?) that I was implying anything.
Way to go, your conscience must be so proud.