Are You A Patriot?
I love the US, I love living here, I love the weather, I love the hospitality, I love the landscape, I love football (yes the American kind), I love BBQ’s, I love 24, I love the opportunities it holds, I love the diversity and I love lots and lots of the people including you no matter where you’re from.
I suppose most of that goes without saying because nobody leaves warm beer, kebabs after 6 pints of beer on a Saturday night, real fish and chips, proper dance music, ASBO’s, cricket and Morris Dancing behind unless they’re very serious about the country they’re moving to.
In my youth and beyond I was a huge patriot. Embarrassing though it seems to me now, I never used to leave the UK without a Union Flag tucked neatly away in my luggage. I’d promptly hang this up at every available opportunity including from hotel balconies at football stadiums and even out of car windows. Yes I am indeed cringing as I type this.
I’d be aghast at any Brit that couldn’t explain the difference between Great Britain, the United Kingdom and The British Isles. I’d march into buildings when I spotted the Union Flag flying upside down (a very easy mistake to make) and demand it be changed under pain of death.
I’d have long and heated debates about why Great Britain was so Great, and no, it wasn’t just because we had the word in our name.
I’d roll my eyes and get exasperated at Johnny Foreigners that didn’t know a Brit was responsible either fully or partly in discoveries and inventions as important as gravity, the telephone, penicillin, television, the Internet (sorry Al Gore, but it was really Tim Berners-Lee), the locomotive engine, the steam engine, the internal combustion engine, the jet engine (we were good with engines), RADAR, light bulbs (check it out Thomas Edison lovers) toilet paper and yes, even Viagra was brought to you courtesy of a horny Brit!
I was a Patriot and it made me proud to talk about stuff like that. It made me feel good to know little ole England (and not forgetting Mighty Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland) could have influenced the world in such a positive manner.
I’m not sure when the change started to happen but it probably wasn’t until I was in my late 20’s. I’m not even sure what caused it, but I am sure it wasn’t a single event.
Maybe it was reading about the atrocities inflicted by the British in foreign lands in the name of democracy? Or maybe it was the embarrassment I felt watching the boorish behavior of English soccer hooligans overseas. Or maybe it was the way the British National Party and National Front adopted the Cross of St George and talked not about being racists, but about being Nationalists and Patriots.
Point of Note: Somebody asked me to make sure I differentiated in this post between patriotism and nationalism. I think the edges are blurry, but my understanding is nationalism is more aggressive and often leads to expansionism.
Whatever the reason for change was, it caused a slow realization. I no longer felt superior simply because I happened to have been born on a particular wind-swept, rain-lashed island in the north Atlantic.
A good friend of mine Ron Betta believes America is the greatest country on earth. I like Ron a lot and I have a tremendous amount of respect for his commitment to excellence, desire to succeed, caring attitude, passion for his job as a personal trainer and ability to laugh at my jokes. Ron is an all round good guy. Ron is also a patriot.
During a recent conversation Ron told me he thought America was the greatest country on earth.
I asked him if he’d checked out the other 190+ and that was how he came to his conclusion. Strangely enough he hadn’t. That may sound facetious, but there is a logical point behind it.
Claiming something to be the greatest will immediately initiate comparison. If the claimant wants to be taken seriously they have to back up their point with solid facts.
Firstly, you have to define what is meant by ‘the best’ and this is no small task when comparing something like countries.
Fun guys that we are, I got out my Sharpie and we started to jot down things on my white board that Ron considered necessary to be classed as a great country.
You can imagine the types of things we had. Freedom of speech, freedom to choose your own religion, democratic political system etc. After about 5 minutes I pointed out we’d only ruled out between 10% and 20% of the worlds countries.
I threw in health and education as areas that most people would consider when talking about a great country. How successfully the country educates its kids and tends to its sick is surely integral to greatness?
The commonly help opinion that the US has the best health care and education system is a myth. Check out this article on health care (and there are many more) if you have doubts.
How does it square that the greatest country on earth sits back and allows more people to declare bankruptcy through an inability to pay medical bills than any other single reason? That it then allows (in some States) either overtly or covertly, companies to fire sick people. Thus causing them to lose insurance and sometimes make untenable a situation that was already difficult and stressful?
As for education, well the US certainly has many of the world’s finest universities and research facilities (although 4 of the top 7 are in the UK), but you have to be able to pay for them. Tens if not hundreds of thousands of kids slip through the gap and miss higher education for reasons outside their own control. Check out Malcolm Gladwell’s “Outliers’ if you want to know more.
It would seem I have got way off topic here, but it’s purely to make a point. One that I’d be happy to make about any country on the planet, including the UK.
I am NOT bashing the United States; if you think I am, refer back to the first paragraph. I’m trying to make a point about the (in my opinion) futility of patriotism and believing one country is superior to another.
“What has this got to do with Life Coaching, Brownson?” You may quite rightly be thinking?
I said I didn’t know what caused my shift into believing patriotism was at best pointless, and at worst a gateway into the more pernicious states of nationalism and jingoism. That’s not technically true. I don’t know what caused it, but I do know why it shifted. It was a movement in my values.
Patriotism stems from values.
A pride in your country must emanate from a belief that your values are better than those of people elsewhere.
Don’t get too hung up on that, and certainly don’t feel compelled to defend yourself if you disagree. It’s not a criticism.
To a greater or lesser degree we all have a belief that our values are better than other peoples. If we didn’t we’d never try and force our opinion on somebody else.
By definition, we have to think our own values are right, otherwise we wouldn’t have them.
I feel sure by now somebody is just itching to tell me that their form of patriotism includes the willingness to accept everybody’s values at an individual level. And that willingness is one of the things that he or she is patriotic about.
However, that just brings us back to values, because that is a collective value of tolerance. And does that tolerance allow people to burn the flag, take drugs, rely on welfare, commit crime, openly object to sending troops overseas etc?
If not, then what does tolerance really mean?
Many people have told me their patriotism stems from the USA being the land of opportunity. I’m sure there is some truth to that, but is there any more opportunity here than in some other countries? And anyway, what do we mean when we talk about opportunity?
There may be greater opportunity to make money in the US than a lot of other countries, yet why is it never in the top 15 countries when it comes to rankings in happiness?
If you say there is an opportunity to succeed wouldn’t it be equally fair for somebody else to suggest there is a great opportunity to work yourself into an early grave, get divorced, become obese, be humiliated on reality TV etc?
Yeh I’m being flippant because I have embraced the role of devils advocate, but these are questions that are seldom asked. Or more pertinently, when they are asked, are often swept under the carpet.
In my admittedly limited experience few people know why they are patriotic, they just are. It’s encouraged at a young age and by early adulthood it is taken as a given. Can you imagine a Presidential candidate announcing he wasn’t really patriotic? He wouldn’t be a candidate for very long.
I think people are people. Some are good and some are bad (according to my values). People make up countries and as such there will be good sides and bad sides to every country, that’s just how it is.
Going back to the whole God debate we had recently, does anybody that seriously believes in God, think (s)he has favorite countries? Is (s)he looking down on us thinking
“Wow, I just love the US, that really is my country, (sigh) but just look at France, what the **** was I thinking of giving such a beautiful country to the French?
250 years ago there was no USA, and who knows, maybe at some time in the future there won’t be again. I have no doubt that people in countries as diverse as Prussia, Yugoslavia, Rhodesia, Zanzibar, Persia and even Texas would have felt patriotic at some stage. Yet none of those even exist as separate, autonomous sovereign States anymore, although I have friends in Texas that refuse to accept that ;-)
Patriotism is a point in time.
The Native Americans believed they didn’t own the land and that it was just on loan to them. I like that viewpoint. This land we arbitrarily call America was here thousands of years before us, and will be here thousands of years after we depart.
To maintain allegiance to a piece of land seems kind of weird to me when I stop and think about it. It promotes exclusivity and an ‘them and us’ mentality that this world may be better served without. It’s even weirder to believe collective values exist on any serious level.
On the other hand, I still occasionally get stirrings of pride during major sporting events when the UK does well. So maybe I’m either a raging hypocrite, or just a bit complicated and I haven’t fully sorted this out in my own mind yet. It’s all a bit work in progress.
If you’re a Patriot, tell me what it means to you. If not, then equally I’d welcome your reasons in the comments section.
If you want to know more about your own values, what makes you tick and how to make rapid change ‘Know Yourself – Change Yourself‘ is available for a few more days. It will be and ex-ebook on 31st March. I’m even throwing in a free copy of Stress is for Suckers into the bargain, so what are you waiting for?
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Pingback by Ask the leadership coach » Are You A Patriot? | The Discomfort Zone on 18 March 2009:
[...] annagrassini posted a noteworthy aricle today onHere’s a small snippet“What has this got to do with Life Coaching, Brownson?” You may quite rightly be thinking? I said I didn’t know what caused my shift into believing patriotism was at best pointless, and at worst a gateway into the more pernicious states … [...]
Comment by Stephen – Rat Race Trap on 18 March 2009:
Patriotism and all forms of group pride (my team won) are simply our gene-driven relics of past survival value. Imagine if you cheered against your tribe in the war?
“To maintain allegiance to a piece of land seems kind of weird to me when I stop and think about it. It promotes exclusivity and an ‘them and us’ mentality that this world may be better served without. It’s even weirder to believe collective values exist on any serious level.”
I used to be a raging patriot of the U.S. No more. I am now a patriot to freedom, justice, tolerance, abundance, and a lot more that has no imaginary boundaries.
If you want to know whether people care about people, ask them their views on immigration. Why if you are born on one-side of an imaginary line do you have “rights” that others do not? This is a case of “I’ve got mine and I don’t want anyone else to mess it up”.
Amen brother Tim. The first time I interacted with you I thought I wasn’t going to agree with you very often. Boy was I wrong!
Stephen – Rat Race Traps last blog post..Top 10 Ways To Stop Killing Yourself With Choices
Comment by emily on 18 March 2009:
how can you say “freedom from being indescriminantly imprisoned and tourtured” is a VALUE? or government stability a ‘value’?
last time i checked human beings like to continue to stay alive. this fact is not ‘right’ or ‘wrong’, it just is.
many countries do not have the above ‘freedoms/values’.
therefore, some countries are more ‘optimal’ than others to live in; and this is rooted in ‘fact’ rather than ‘value’
i guess i am missing your point, because some living situations are better than others. ;-)
Comment by Bamboo Forest – PunIntended on 18 March 2009:
I see nothing wrong with patriotism. I define it as someone who believes in the good of their country and what their Nation stands for.
Granted, it goes without saying that no land is perfect.
More, patriotism can be found in every Nation among every people. It’s a universal expression – and I am not bothered by it.
Bamboo Forest – PunIntendeds last blog post..The Art of Artery Clogging: A Recipe
Comment by amypalko on 18 March 2009:
I’m not a big fan of patriotism, but I do try and foster a sense of cultural identity in my children. But then I do think there’s a difference between patriotism and cultural identity. I can take pride in my nationality and the traditions that have developed over the years in the country I call home without professing my country’s superiority over every other country. I think that goes back to the ethos I try and live every day – recognise & appreciate the unique specialness of the individual so as to foster compassion & connection. We can expand that to countries – I can appreciate the wonder of Germany/Thailand/Mexico without believing that one is intrinsically better than another.
Great post – think it’ll generate some really interesting conversation!
Amy
xx
amypalkos last blog post..A Few Questions
Comment by Tim Brownson on 18 March 2009:
@ Stepehn – LOL, yeh that was my take after our initial jousting.
I like your point about imaginary boundaries, because that is so true.
Look at earth from Space, there’s no countries, just a wholeness
@ Emily – Fairly easy. Because freedom is very much a core value. Some countries don’t have it you’re right, but most do. It’s a very basic human right, not something we should have to feel patriotic about imho.
Stability is also a moot point because there’s really no such thing in nature or life.
I responded in detail to the torture issues, but then deleted it, because that’s not really the point of the post.
@ BF – I’m honestly not sure you read the post because I went to great lengths to say no country is perfect and that patriotism has existed everywhere. I’m also not saying it is a bad thing per se, just that I’m not sure it’s a good thing. I don’t see the value of it and I’m waiting for somebody to give me a reason to doubt that belief.
@ Amy – I agree that cultural identity is somewhat different and you make a good point. The Scots for example have a rich culture that is worthy of studying, acknowledging and learning from. It only becomes worrying when it breeds sectarianism and a lack of tolerance.
Comment by Bamboo Forest – PunIntended on 18 March 2009:
@ Tim: I read the entire post! You may not be saying it’s a bad thing per se – but one could certainly interpret you have a negative outlook on it.
Either way… I often comment when I read a full post and I couldn’t think of anything enlightening to add, so I just added my few quick thoughts off the top of my head even if they were not in opposition to your post.
Bamboo Forest – PunIntendeds last blog post..The Art of Artery Clogging: A Recipe
Comment by Tim Brownson on 18 March 2009:
@ BF – Ok my mistake, I apologize. Am I saying it’s a bad thing? Not really sure, but I’m certainly curious to know why most people seem to think it’s a good thing? I’m also curious as to what the world would be like if nobody was patriotic.
Comment by Johnny B. Truant on 18 March 2009:
Well, you’ve muddied the waters by adding so much explanation, so I no longer know if I am a patriot. I do like it here, the current economic barf notwithstanding.
Johnny B. Truants last blog post..This goat is your goat, this goat is my goat
Comment by Leandra on 18 March 2009:
I completely agree. Patriotism has been such a looney concept to me for so long. In elementary school, I paid attention to the Pledge of Allegiance and stopped saying it. No, I don’t pledge allegiance to a flag or the Republic. I pledge allegiance to myself.
You stated that you’ve never met a patriot that had good reasons; neither have I and maybe that’s another reason I feel so strongly against patriotism. The reasons are mostly arbitrary. There are reasons to prefer one place over another but I don’t think it’s fair or accurate to declare anything better than another especially when what you’re looking for as an individual citizen varies from person to person. It’s like the New York/LA debate. Well, if you like highly urbanized places that are relatively easy to get around, you might fancy New York. If you want something a little slower with enclaves of urban flavor and warmer weather, check out LA. It’s a matter of preference, not actual debate.
The world is getting smaller and smaller, despite it’s immense size. We are all connected. Canadians were the first to respond to Hurricane Katrina. Where were the patriots? How well would we function if other countries didn’t respond to the needs of people in different countries simply because of arbitrary boundaries? Think about the tsunami in Indonesia, poverty in India, hunger and AIDS in Africa.
Be proud, but don’t be stupid. There’s no one size fits all for anyone and no place serves all well or equally, therefore there will never be a “the best.”
Leandras last blog post..Allow me to reintroduce myself…
Comment by Duff on 18 March 2009:
I think the sentiment behind patriotism is wonderful, but the scope too narrow. If we could have a kind of patriotism for all countries and indeed all people or even all beings, that would be something.
Duffs last blog post..Transformation by Donation
Comment by Tim Brownson on 18 March 2009:
@ Leandra – I really, really hope somebody can offer me a valid alternative point of view. I *think* I’m open-minded on this and you make some valid points. You could even take it a stage further and say wouldn’t a Patriot do everything at his or her disposal to make the country a better place i.e. through contribution etc? Not sure about that, but it’s a thought.
@ Duff – You beat me to it. I was just thinking of adding an addendum saying that all patriotism is formed out of comparison. Nobody is patriotic about being a member of Planet Earth, because we have nothing to compare it to.
Comment by Jessica on 18 March 2009:
Sideways from the topic; when I lived in San Diego, I was intrigued that they claimed to be “America’s Finest City” and realized it was because no one would fight them for the title (finest isn’t exactly a word worth arguing over).
Andrea Lee recently held a call about Thomas Leonard (http://www.bestofthomas.com/) and one of the things she talked about him valuing was being the “st” (finest, cheapest, etc), and I think it has appeal to know we’re unique in some way whether that’s in comparison to the other countries of the world, or the other cities in our state, or the other people on our block. (It seems odd, though, that we make groups to better stand apart from other groups–I’m unique just like these specific people here…)
Jessicas last blog post..Free Teleseminar: 7 Strategies for Profitable Blogs and Ezines
Comment by Michael Panebianco on 18 March 2009:
My personal view of patriotism is derived more from a feeling than an action, or “group think”. I still get misty at most renditions of the “Star Spangled Banner”. Patriotism is sheer emotion in my opinion. I still wear my red, white, and blue tie every day with my uniform.
Being part of something bigger than yourself under the ideals set forth by the founding fathers seems to be what my patriotism revolves around.
I must say that my patriotism towards this country has been dampened by the behaviors of those who “lead” us,(all parties included) but am nevertheless inspired when see all the people who still raise a hand and volunteer, for whatever…for all of us, for the less fortunate, or for freedom. Those with the balls to stand and fight for something inspire my patriotism.
If my definition moves outside a border, across an ocean, or outside our atmosphere, the source of my patriotism is intact. I believe that was the intent in design in this country. But, thats just my opinion.
While I would stand, fight, and die for the ideals of this country, I would hardly say the leadership of this country inspires much patriotism. I venture to say that less than a handful of the people in Washington are there for purposes other than serving themselves. Thank God the ideal is bigger than the elected official. I guess my point is that patriotism and government aren’t the same. Many people lump them together. I do not.
The sad thing is, the same maniacs that helped bring the Nazi’s to power, nearly exterminating my Great Grandparents, claimed patriotism as they marched under Hitler as well. Nationalism, patriotism….Correct you are Tim, it can get fuzzy.
I temper my patriotism to emotional expression of value. To each his own.
Comment by Tracy on 18 March 2009:
Tim, you digestive biccie eating, warm beer drinking bastid, go back home to your marmite and your roundabouts and your hedgehog hospitals! Happy now? ;-)
Heh, I don’t know that I’m particularly patriotic. I like my country well enough, but I think I’d probably like wherever I was from. Perhaps it’s because I grew up mostly overseas and my mother isn’t American? Even now, we live in the States, but my husband is Irish and we could very well wind up living there again, so I’m sort of rootless. Which I don’t think is a horrible thing; I take what I like from wherever I am and add it to whatever I’ve picked up from other places.
I think any situation where you identify most strongly with your own group and see it as exceptional probably doesn’t stand up to close scrutiny, because it is such an instinctual human habit. I think in it’s mild forms, it can be a good thing, if it leads to a sense of being a part of a community and working together for the good of all. It can be a very bad thing, too, when you cease to think for yourself and use it as a way to exclude or even worse, dehumanize other people.
It seems like I relate everything to my family, but it’s what I know best, so here goes. With my kids, I do try to instill a mild form of family patriotism. We’re proud of our family, we cheer each other on, we stick together and work through hard times. That’s positive and gives us all a feeling of being part of something bigger than ourselves. What I actively discourage is thinking people are suspect because they are different, being selfish, thinking of ourselves as superior and feeling jealous and spiteful towards others and being insular. That would be negative and serve nobody, least of all ourselves.
When I was a child, I remember feeling embarrassed because my family was somewhat dysfunctional and odd. There wasn’t a sense of pride of where I came from and it was a bad, lonely feeling. I think it is a very real human need to want to be proud of where you come from, be it family or heritage or country, even if it’s often perverted into something that leads to horrible things.
Tracys last blog post..You can’t touch this
Comment by Tim Brownson on 18 March 2009:
@ Jessica – You may not know this but I am the most not too bad when in the right frame of mind Life Coach on my street and nobody can say I’m not.
I agree about the anomaly of wanting to form groups to show how unique we are. Then again I once paid $1,000 for a Boss suit in the past to show how cool and unique I was. I wasn’t, but it is a nice suit ;-)
@ Mike – I was looking forward to your response and I wasn’t disappointed, even if I’m not sure I agree. I wouldn’t die for my country. I may put my life on the line for other people, but not some abstract concept like a country. And it will always be THOSE politicians that make the decisions. Of course unfortunately there are times when war is necessary, but imho it should always be the absolute last resort.
@ Tracy – You see I actually get that, because family values exist whereas national values don’t. There’s a great Tony Robbins quote that goes along the lines of “You come from a dysfunctional family? Show me a functional family!”
Comment by Hilary on 18 March 2009:
I live in a country that has, until recent years, had a bit of an anti-patriotism stance. I’m proud of that! Australia is better than other countries because it’s not patriotic.
(You get that this is a joke, right?)
Hilarys last blog post..Pond life
Comment by @DoreenO on 18 March 2009:
Good post and insightful comments. I consider myself a patriot, but my definition of the term doesn’t entail the U.S. being THE greatest country in the world. I love my country, but I’m not blind to its faults. And I understand that I love my country within the scope of my limited worldview. As a comparison, I love my husband – but I haven’t dated every man in the world to undoubtedly say he’s THE greatest husband – but I love him nonetheless. And patriotism – like relationships – best thrives on a healthy degree of self-criticism and awareness.
So why be a patriot? To me, I suppose it gives me justification to pay my taxes, and it makes me a more thankful person. And you wrote in a previous post that you believe the greatest state we can be in, is a state of gratitude. Also, I’m an Army brat … so that probably explains it.
Comment by Tim Brownson on 18 March 2009:
@ Hilary – LMAO, that’s funny!
@ Doreen – I appreciate that. I probably didn’t explain that part very well. I agree you can be a patriot and not believe your country is the greatest on earth.
I have no problem understanding why somebody loves a person or even a pet. A country though is just so random to me. The army thing will have a huge impact I would imagine.
@ Johnny – Sorry bud I missed your comment. I was so busy pining for you (and the fjords) and hoping you’d be writing another guest post very soon.
Comment by Laurie on 18 March 2009:
I think patriotism has to do with a sense of belonging and loyalty. It’s pride in your country and putting forth an effort to make it a better place because no land is perfect. It’s having a respect for it history (while trying to understand its historic mistakes) and a respect for the institution that keeps it functioning. (I didn’t say to agree with, but to respect) It’s being able to dream about what your country and your life could be and having the freedom to work toward that vision.
The rumor around Texas is that we are going to secede from the US and Chuck Norris will be our first president after we reestablish our nation-hood. BTW Texas is the only state in the union that has the right to fly its flag at an equal height as Ol’ Glory. We don’t though; we are respectful down here. Yee-haw!
While God sees all nations as equal, he does hesitate, for obvious reasons, when it come to France. But who wouldn’t?
Comment by Johnny B. Truant on 18 March 2009:
@Tim – Literally any time you want, my friend!
Johnny B. Truants last blog post..This goat is your goat, this goat is my goat
Comment by Elena on 19 March 2009:
@Tim – regarding your question as to what the world would be like if nobody was patriotic – I suspect it would be somewhat like Australia. Hilary’s comment was very true – if there’s anything Australians are patriotic about, it’s their lack of the usual flag-waving, anthem-singing variety of patriotism. For example, most Australians don’t know the words to the second verse of the national anthem. And most of them are proud of that fact. Many don’t even know that there exists a third verse. And I don’t think I’ve ever met a person who knew the words to the third verse.
Actually, if you think of patriotism as “thinking your values are better than other people’s” then Australians are still patriotic, just that one value they are patriotic about is a healthy disrespect towards government and authority. Which includes a distrust of the kind of flag-waving patriotism that governments seem to try to encourage. The former Prime Minister, John Howard, had some success in that, but now that he’s gone, maybe things will change back.
Comment by Tim Brownson on 19 March 2009:
@ Laurie – You’ve kind of told me somethig similar to what most people tell me. I understand what it can mean to people, but what’s its value?
What makes us feel we need to belong to a particular piece of land? As for loyalty, I think loyalty to family, our own values and the St Louis Rams is much more important.
Texas will never secede. It may invade and take over the US though.
@ Elena – I actually think there is a good chance we’d be living in Oz now if it wasn’t so poorly positioned. Did God not understand location, location, location. Then again I suppose that’s to keep all the Brits away like me that can’t deal with 24 hours on a plane.
It sticks in my throat to say this, but IF there were to be a greatest country on earth, Australia would have to be right up there in the reckoning. I know literally dozens of people that have visited there and EVERY SINGLE ONE loved it and the attitude of the people.
I’m just off to vomit and mail my passport back to Her Majesty.
Comment by Michael Panebianco on 19 March 2009:
@ Tim, only one correction, I wouldnt die for this country, just the ideals of this country….wherever I may roam.
Sadly, I just don’t see the ideals being represented much from leadership, just shining through in us little people. This is why a Government should always fear its people, and the rights we have should not be infringed.
We are much better on our level than the servants we send to do our bidding. When was the last time anything you saw on Cspan inspired patriotism in you??? Been about 8 years for me.
Comment by Laurie on 19 March 2009:
@Tim- The value is that because you love your country and want good things for it and its future generations, you are willing to give more than you take to make it a better place for those who come after you.
You asked:”What makes us feel we need to belong to a particular piece of land?”
I don’t think it is the specific land we need to belong to but what the land represents to us. Why do people hate to see mom and dad’s house bulldozed down to build a parking lot? It’s what the house represents to them. Their childhood memories, good times with family, their roots. I think this is similar to what patriotism is. It is an appreciation of those that have gone before me to pave the way for me to live the lifestyle I am living. It is me wanting to pave the way for the next ones to come. To give more than I take. I think a lot of patriotism in more than celebrating what is…I think it is also dreaming about what could be.
Loyalty to the Saint Louis Rams? How loyal are are they when they use to be the Los Angeles Rams?
When Texas does invade and take over the US, I’m still betting on Chuck Norris as the first president!
Comment by Ruth on 19 March 2009:
Tim,
Fabulous post.
Sadly, I don’t have time now to read the comments, so forgive me if I’m repeating something someone else said.
I was raised in an American, patriotic and religious family.
But, I, like you, changed, and like you, it wasn’t any single thing that caused the change.
This is how I feel in a nutshell:
We are all God’s children. The life of an Iraqi peasant is equal in value to that of the President of the US.
Both Patriotism and Nationalism are twists on primal, clannish behavior. Our world faces serious issues and this kind of behavior will destroy us. We have to grow up and work together.
Lots of the opportunity and abundance in the US is because we have forcefully manipulated other parts of the world and bullied them for their resources. Also, we are built on the graveyard of the many great tribes of the Native Americans. The sooner we accept this, the sooner we can go forward with a compassionate attitude for all.
Thank you for such an interesting post, and the opportunity to share our points of view.
Ruths last blog post..Response to Descartes
Comment by Tim Brownson on 19 March 2009:
@ Mike – I thought Cspan was an orange ;-) Glad you’re not going to take a bullet just yet.
@ Laurie – How come we haven’t beaten each other to a pulp by now? Is it cuz we’re nice people? ;-)
The point I was making (badly) is that the values don’t end at the border. If you aspire to certain things, what stops you admiring them and feeling a sense of pride for somebody demonstrating them 1 mile the other side of an imaginary and completely arbitrary line. What makes them more admirable or give you more pride because the person has the same passport? It’s not like every American has the same values or even close to the same values. Everybody’s are different and to try and attach them to a flag is futile imho.
@ Ruth – I may just refer people to your post. I love your answer because I think it sums up a lot of what I am feeling. Thanks.
Comment by Laurie on 19 March 2009:
@Tim- Why haven’t we beaten each other up? Cause I find you to be so darn lovable! You are just so cute with that shiny head and those glasses! We are nice people Tim, and we both realize there is a lot to learn from people with opposing views (even if you are wrong).
I really like it when others show patriotism for their own nation. I believe that people from the same country can feel a sense of brotherhood because of their commonalities.
What do you think would be different in the world if there was no patriotism?
Comment by Tim Brownson on 19 March 2009:
@ Laurie – That’s MY point. There are NO commonalities other than the land and the passport. Name one thing of significance that every person believes in that binds the US together. One thing that makes it any different to every other country. You can’t, because there isn’t anything.
Lots of countries have freedom of speech, religion and have democratically elected governments.
There’s nothing to feel patriotic about. It’s just a random group of 350 million all with different ideas and values.
The more I think about it I am convinced people are only patriotic because they’re taught to be like that from an early age. It’s frowned on not to be so so the belief is propagated.
There would be a lot more tolerance without patriotism and a lot more acceptance of other people.
Comment by Maryam Webster on 19 March 2009:
To address a poster above, actually I’m much in favor of St. Tiggywinkle’s, though the warm beer you can keep. And apparently Costa Rica is another place where the warmth of people is genuine and evident. ;-)
I tweeted this to you Tim but will repeat for here: All states have value to those who espouse them. The value of patriotism is to bind frightened people into a community of like-minded frightened people where they may ’safely avoid’ the inevitability of change. It doesn’t work of course, but it is an illusion that is bought into daily by many. When failure inevitably happens, it is blamed conveniently upon the object of that community’s fear. The more severe forms of Patriotism = Fundamentalism = Zealotry = Obsession psychologically speaking.
Y’all’sMMV, of course.
Comment by Turiya Moore on 19 March 2009:
This is a really long “comment” I hope you don’t mind. I enjoyed your article, it just really got me thinking :-)
I am not a patriot or a nationalist. I am part of one family that is not limited to human form or earth but all of nature and whatever drives its expansion.
A symptom of human ego is the desire to compare and even compete with others. But this is only one stage in the evolution of our awareness.
I think you are just awakening to a higher way of seeing life and people. Your “pond if life” is growing to include others inside of it, instead of viewing them as separate from your self, or whatever you consider your home. (there was a time when people thought the universe was geo-centric, and now that idea is a joke in the context of what we know now)
We are in a time of growing awareness and old beliefs that justified, or fed the idea that we are “different” are in the early stages of fading away. As we mature spiritually we naturally focus more on our human similarities. What makes us equal?
We all are searching for inner peace and lasting fulfillment; joy.
I believe we’re all the same. Not bad or good, just at different stages of maturity. And we are all doing our very best with the understanding that we have right now.
Dogmatism is directly proportional to ones level of ignorance.
I believe humility and the willingness to listen to others and allow them their version of truth is a sign of wisdom.
It is possible to transcend the delusion that our way is best, as well as the desire to impose our will on others. This simply requires experience.
By experiencing repeated failure each time we try to change others to our way of thinking or living, we begin to see that the result of our well-intentioned activity is not what we wanted to happen at all. Only in this way do we actually learn.
Accepting our faults and those of others is not defeat. It’s only putting our feet on the ground so we can take solid steps into a brighter future.
The world is changing, and false borders and definitions are fading away. Tools like twitter.com (follow me @meditationhelp) are erasing our separateness and helping us connect with people we never would have met before. Twitter is very interesting because it creates a perfect environment to allow us to relate on the level of consciousness and energy without the usual distractions of appearance, social status, race, or religion. I believe it is helping people see how similar we really are. It’s an expression of our need to expand our sense of community beyond false limitations. We are one, and we know it inside.
Turiya Moores last blog post..Why I need to paint.
Comment by Laurie on 19 March 2009:
@Tim- well alrighty then! I still think you are adorable!
Comment by Michelle Norton on 19 March 2009:
A thoughtful post, as always Tim. I really enjoyed reading it, but when I read the title I thought you must be a little bit crazy, even more so than with the religion question.
I’m not patriotic and I don’t think I ever have been, I’m not even sure I knew what it was until I visited America, where people know the words to their national anthem, stand and put their hands on their hearts when it’s sang and hang flags from their houses and cars.
The only time I’ve seen anything similar here was for the world cup.
I really don’t understand boundaries and borders, the world is indeed shrinking, and I hope I am still around to see the day when people can move freely between countries, oh and Britain created the first passport as well.
Comment by Tim Brownson on 19 March 2009:
@ Maryam – Very well put!
@ Turiya – Do I mind? No I don’t mind, I love it! Fancy writing a guest post?
@ Laurie – Likewise.
@ Michelle – LOL, I never knew that about the passport. Then again maybe it was because we were running amok, globally speaking and needed them ;-)
Comment by Turiya Moore on 19 March 2009:
Well, I would be willing to give a guest post a shot. I actually cleaned the above comment up a bit and stuck it on my blog today with a link to this page.
If you have something in mind, I am game to hear it and see what comes out of it for sure.
By the way, I appreciate your honesty in the way you wrote this post.
Very inspiring.
peace
Turiya Moores last blog post..Growing Out of “isms”
Comment by Ron Betta on 19 March 2009:
Hi Tim,
Yes, I certainly have a comment! First, thanks for mentioning me in your post. I think perhaps our definitions of patriotism vary a bit. I don’t feel America is superior. Patriotism is a love of one’s country – the good and the bad. Nationalism offers a sense of superiority to me and as you say, a desire to impose that nation on others. Perhaps I’m using the term “greatest” instead of saying “I love America”. Patriotism to me is love for one’s nation – not superiority over others.
America is my home, it’s a group of people, some good and some bad. We have rules, laws, landscapes, textures, heroes and screw-ups. We have beauty and ugliness – and so do all other countries. We have baseball and steroids and scandal and the key is, it’s mine. It’s something I grew up with and it gives me a sense of home, a sense of comfort. I don’t feel that makes me superior, just patriotic. I love it all – even the flaws.
I agree with some of your points, but I don’t feel I owe any apology to native Americans. My family didn’t arrive until 80 years ago. I can’t hold history to my standards today anyway. Things are much different now and I believe we’ve created a place where a man who just 150 years ago would have been owned and traded like cotton is now sitting in the White House, voted in by so many women who didn’t have a right to vote when this organic nation started – another win. I believe we’ve created a place where you may declare bankruptcy and still have a chance to build your financial life again. And I believe we can always look back and point fingers and declare what was good or bad, right or wrong. I choose to look at the good and enjoy what I have. In time, I’m sure I’ll visit other countries and learn about their beautiful attributes as well. Great post – now it’s time for me to exercise!
Pingback by Growing Out of “isms” « Relax Meditate Smile on 19 March 2009:
[...] Growing Out of “isms” March 19, 2009 — turiyamoore This post is in response to a very interesting blog post on patriotism. I hope you’ll check it out. http://www.adaringadventure.com [...]
Comment by Haider on 20 March 2009:
Hi Tim,
Great post!
I think remarks that a country is the greatest in the world have both objective and subjective elements. Therefore, they should be treated (and expressed) as opinions/personal preferences rather than fact. A small country might have the same judicial system as the United States, but not the same luxuries and lifestyle.
I believe rights are inherent to human nature (i.e. necessary, based on our needs as human beings) and are, therefore, objective. Lifestyle choices and conditions (fashion, weather, etc) have a lot to do with personal preference and are, therefore, subjective.
As for defining patriotism (and delineating it from nationalism), I wrote an article a long time ago on my now-dormant old blog about this topic. It’s a bit long, so you might want to skip to the “Nationalism” subtitle.
http://www.afilsforyourthoughts.com/blog/2007/03/04/nationalism-patriotism/
I hope you like it!
Haiders last blog post..Introducing the Personal Growth Map
Comment by CathD on 20 March 2009:
As a white-skinned South African, I’ve had some interesting experiences of people responding with disbelief when I say I’m a South African. And then they say, “But you’re not black.” I’m often tempted to fill in forms that request “demographic/ race” by ticking “African.” My parents and their parents and their parents were all born in South Africa. Surely that qualifies me as an African? Yet until recently, white South Africans who’d been in SA for generations and generations were expected to tick “European” when filling in those sorts of forms (not that we could get a European passport though!). Through my travels around the world, I’ve met people who are living in America but were both elsewhere in the world, and call themselves American (rather than Polish/ Irish, etc), and black-skinned people who were born in the UK, and who’s parents were born in the UK, and who had never even visited Africa calling themselves African. My take: it’s all made up. Labels about Nationality/ race/ identity are very subjective. Patriotism involves creating a form of label, so you can identify yourself with a certain group of people and a certain set of values – and usually a certain patch of land. If that distinction lets you feel more free, AND lets others feel more free, then I’m okay with it. Unfortunately, I think it’s a distinction that, like many other “institutions” or ways of grouping people, is often used to restrict other people’s freedom whilst promoting one’s own freedom.
CathDs last blog post..Follow-up on my big, irrational fear
Comment by Johnny B. Truant on 20 March 2009:
@CathD – What an interesting predicament! I’d totally expect you to tick “African.” “European” makes zero sense. It actually makes a hell of a lot more sense than American blacks being “African.” I mean, they’re American. What weird world we live in.
Johnny B. Truants last blog post..Cheers to babies, jeers to gonorrhea
Comment by CathD on 20 March 2009:
@Johnny B Truant – yeah! It’s messed up, isn’t it! Even more weird was the racial classification in the apartheid era, where govnt officials decided what race you were based on stuff like the texture of your hair and the colour of your skin, and the thickness of your lips (and then allocated you to particular land areas on that basis). I’ve met “white” South Africans who had the sort of skin that tans real dark, and they got themselves into trouble for doing normal stuff (like chilling out at a “whites-only” beach). I had another friend who is a white south African with olive skin and she married a so-called “coloured” man who actually had lighter skin than her’s, yet her family still freaked about their relationship because his family’s official classification was coloured. It’s weird that many people can’t see how subjective these sorts of distinctions are.
P.S. My brother, who moved to the USA some years ago (who’s obviously also white-skinned), likes to refer to himself as an “African American” – gets people nice and confused and riled up!
CathDs last blog post..Follow-up on my big, irrational fear
Comment by Ian Peatey on 20 March 2009:
Tim
As a fellow Brit choosing to leave the country of warm beer and fish and chips I laughed in recognition at the first parts of your article here. I went East rather than West and couldn’t quite tear myself away from Europe.
I only had a short period of patriotism and it was quickly gone once I’d left Britain. I think it was a combination of seeing a lot of arrogance behind my own brand of patriotism, combined with a foundation of a very limited view of the world. As you say, how can I conclude any one place is ‘the best’ until I’ve experienced all the competition?
I still believe arrogance sits behind most patriotism and it’s something that’s fuelled by those in power. I imagine it would be pretty hard to muster an army of young men willing to die without something like patriotism. Fear is another way it can be done (and I think that’s one of the tools of the nationalist agenda).
Great post by the way! Very insightful!
Ian Peateys last blog post..Stop making me happy!
Comment by Tim Brownson on 20 March 2009:
@ Turiya – The offer is there. I like stuff that is a little leftfield and gets people thinking differently! I have about 4 weeks lined up at the moment.
@ Ron – Can you have a love for one thing and not a love for another without involving comparison? I’m not so sure.
I too applaud the opportunity that women and minorities now have in society, although we have a long way to go. Could a gay man ever become President, or what about an American born Korean, or an atheist? I honestly don’t know, but I have my doubts.
OTOH, they could in some other countries, so that is something to aspire to.
BTW, I’m certainly not suggesting you owe an apology to the American Native Indians.
@ Haider – I’ve blocked Tuesday out to go and read it ;-) Seriously though thanks a lot for posting the link and adding to the debate.
@ Cath – I’ve heard that before and very strange it is too. The inspiration for the post was the build up to St Patrick’s Day. I agree with what you were saying. When I speak to an American in the UK, they are American. Whereas here they tend to be Irish, Italian, Colombian, Korean etc. It almost seems that being American isn’t enough of a sense of identity.
Comment by James Chartrand – Men with Pens on 21 March 2009:
Late to the party.
I’m Canadian. I like my country, I think it’s a good place to live, and I’m proud of it. I assumed (some years ago) that everyone was much the same about their own country, and that was fine.
Then I got online.
Then I discovered patriotism. And I can honestly say, I don’t like it one damned bit, and I don’t like how people who are patriots treat others, nor do I like how patriots treat me.
‘Nuff said.
James Chartrand – Men with Penss last blog post..Are You Losing Faith in Your Writing Dream?
Comment by Tim Brownson on 22 March 2009:
@ Ian – I agree regarding the army. I think because patriotism is so ingrained at an early age, most people never think to question its legitimacy or usefulness.
@ James – Yeh, nuff said ;-)
Comment by Vlad Dolezal on 23 March 2009:
I had a funny feeling reading your first paragraph, because I just recently wrote a post on my blog called “3 Simple Things I Love About The UK.” (Well, actually, the idea started like that. Then it evolved into how listing 3 simple things about any particular area of your life is a great exercise to do when you’re bored…)
As for the patriotism – I never realized how stupidly patriotic I was until I first moved to a foreign country. The thing is, I wasn’t openly or actively patriotic. It was just those… little habits of thoughts, and things we would say to each other with friends. Hard to explain really, but I think you will understand what I mean.
Vlad Dolezals last blog post..IR Goggles
Comment by Karen on 7 April 2009:
Nice post! I think patriotism becomes a lesser issue the more you travel. I’m not sure how I ended up here but it was meant to be… It’s a bit of an issue up here with us in Canada every time we hear an American President exclaim that the US is the best country in the world. Personally, I used to be an American and I quite like Canada. :-) I may have to read you more often.
Comment by Tim Brownson on 8 April 2009:
@ Karen – I agree, the quote “Travel broadens the mind” is bang on. I can remember years and years ago having a conversation in a pub and saying all the most open-minded easy going people I knew had traveled extensively. I’m not sure of the accuracy of a drunken conversation 20 years ago, but it seems relevant. Thanks for dropping by!
Comment by vedapushpa on 17 April 2009:
Patriotism actualizes as intent subjecive-feelings as both ‘Nationalism’ and ‘Nativism… and as such if one gets to live on land other than his birth-place… he/she will surely be a proud citizen of the land of adoption – Nationalistc that is – but he/she will continue to be culturally/communally patriotic only interms of his/her land of Birth.
Hence – given a great deal of dual-natinalism of the presentday nations… the individuals therein necessarily would be members of two nations – the larger political and the smaller communal-cultural.
vedapushpa
social anthropologist
Bangalore – India
Comment by Karen on 17 April 2009:
vedapushpa, I have to disagree. I was born in the US and gave up my US citizenship 50 years later when Bush invaded Iraq. I have lived in Canada for over 15 years and have been a citizen for 6. I feel quite a bit of pride in Canada. I can’t say I have any feelings of pride towards the US. And, I know I am not alone. There are many ex-Americans and American expats here (many since the Vietnam war), who feel the same as I do. Just my two cents…
Comment by Karen on 17 April 2009:
And, I meant to add: Since leaving the States, I’ve acquired a much more objective view of the US. I wonder if objectivity can coexist with patriotism.
Comment by vedapushpa on 17 April 2009:
Yes – Karen ! Sentiment of Patriotism political will certainly gets discounted for any individual who gets ‘victimized’ due to a wrongful Political Act – national or international.
Well – that can happen [hopefullly not] again in the chosen changed National status. And as individualas mature into trans-social personal level of existence … then either cultural or the political nationalism does not matter in particular as he/she would have mentally become a ‘citizen of the world’.
But – for the Fighting Force in particular — a political distortion or frustration in his/her patriotic sentiment causes a real trauma.
Thanks for taking the ‘discussion’ further.
Wish You Justice and Peace and Joy !!
vedapushpa